Here is another response to the marijuana issue:
_________________________________________
Cannabis network gives Health Minister a warning
September 22, 2023
A cannabis network today (Sep. 22) urged Public Health Minister Chonlanan Srikaew to clearly define what a planned draft bill on cannabis and hemp would mean in saying it is to be for medical and health purposes only because if traditional medical practitioners are cut out it could lead to conflicts, TV Channel 7 said.
After the liberal marijuana policy became effective on June 9, 2022 possessing and using all parts of cannabis plants, including flowers and seeds, are now allowed. However, extracted content remains illegal if it contains more than 0.2% of the psychoactive ingredient that produces a “high” — tetrahydrocannabinol, or THC.
Mr. Prasitchai Noonuan, secretary-general of Writing Thailand’s Cannabis Future network, pointed out that marijuana has been used by local medical practitioners to treat patients for hundreds of years but when it comes analysing its use it is modern medical doctors who are asked to undertake the task with most of them disliking it.
“If Dr Chonlanan only asks modern medical doctors to define marijuana conflicts will occur. This isn’t just a fight over marijuana but also about squeezing out local knowledge time and again.
“I don’t think the local people will allow the government to oppress them.
“For them the next battle is determining what marijuana is and defining what medical and health usage would mean.
“I want Dr. Chonlanan to respect local medical treatment and please read traditional medicine textbooks that say smoking marijuana is a type of treatment,” he said.
Prasitchai also revealed that some Pheu Thai MPs had told him that their party wants to delete Section 18 of this draft bill which would allow each household to grow a maximum of 15 cannabis plants.
In his opinion this move is intended to allow big capitalists to control marijuana production similar to the alcohol industry.
“When the situation reaches this point then we would have to prepare to rally because marijuana is worth hundreds of billion baht,” he said.
He invited those interested to join a meeting in Krabi tomorrow to brainstorm on drafting a marijuana legislation.
https://thainewsroom.com/2023/09/22/can ... a-warning/
By Barry Kenyon
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Re: By Barry Kenyon
British expats in Thailand bemoan Barclays’ latest debanking moves
By Barry Kenyon
September 24, 2023
Barclays’ decision to shut down as many expat accounts worldwide as they can find is causing distress amongst British retirees and long stayers in Thailand. The bank claims the reason is that Barclays’ home services are for UK residents, but Pattaya expat Mike Gilmore says he has been an expat customer for over thirty years. “The real reason is they are not making enough money from us,” he said, “and don’t want the hassle of dealing with overseas customers as they continue to close branches and cut staff numbers.”
The bank is offering an alternative to switch to a global account at its offshore bases in the Isle of Man and the Channel Isles which are technically not part of the UK. The downside is that there is a monthly service charge of 40 pounds unless at least 100,000 pounds are kept on an ongoing basis in the same account. Other problems could include a complex online initial registration to transfer money internationally, renewal difficulties when a credit card expires and threats to close the account if the balance is too small. Zero interest is paid on most current and savings account.
The Barclays move is not unexpected as many expats, including Brits based in Thailand, had already been ordered to move their UK-based accounts when the bank discovered that they were using a UK post-restante address – often a relative’s – as their regular contact address. In 2021 Lloyds Banking Group, which includes Halifax and the Bank of Scotland, had ordered the closure of thousands of British expat accounts, mostly in Europe.
Another Pattaya Brit, Ken Taylor, said he had been told to close his Barclays account by mid November 2023. “I live on modest pensions in UK which I need to be transferred every month.” He said he was contacting the providers to see if they would transfer directly to his Thai bank account but had been warned that some pension companies charged extra, or used poorer exchange rates, or even insisted on sending a cheque which was impossible to cash here.
Ken Taylor added, “Although the Barclays news won’t affect most British expats in Thailand as they have already made other banking arrangements, it does illustrate how living overseas brings its own problems. We also have to worry about the rumors of changes in the Thai taxation system, a flat refusal by the British government to upgrade frozen state pensions and what the immigration bureau may or may not be planning.”
https://www.pattayamail.com/latestnews/ ... ves-441444
By Barry Kenyon
September 24, 2023
Barclays’ decision to shut down as many expat accounts worldwide as they can find is causing distress amongst British retirees and long stayers in Thailand. The bank claims the reason is that Barclays’ home services are for UK residents, but Pattaya expat Mike Gilmore says he has been an expat customer for over thirty years. “The real reason is they are not making enough money from us,” he said, “and don’t want the hassle of dealing with overseas customers as they continue to close branches and cut staff numbers.”
The bank is offering an alternative to switch to a global account at its offshore bases in the Isle of Man and the Channel Isles which are technically not part of the UK. The downside is that there is a monthly service charge of 40 pounds unless at least 100,000 pounds are kept on an ongoing basis in the same account. Other problems could include a complex online initial registration to transfer money internationally, renewal difficulties when a credit card expires and threats to close the account if the balance is too small. Zero interest is paid on most current and savings account.
The Barclays move is not unexpected as many expats, including Brits based in Thailand, had already been ordered to move their UK-based accounts when the bank discovered that they were using a UK post-restante address – often a relative’s – as their regular contact address. In 2021 Lloyds Banking Group, which includes Halifax and the Bank of Scotland, had ordered the closure of thousands of British expat accounts, mostly in Europe.
Another Pattaya Brit, Ken Taylor, said he had been told to close his Barclays account by mid November 2023. “I live on modest pensions in UK which I need to be transferred every month.” He said he was contacting the providers to see if they would transfer directly to his Thai bank account but had been warned that some pension companies charged extra, or used poorer exchange rates, or even insisted on sending a cheque which was impossible to cash here.
Ken Taylor added, “Although the Barclays news won’t affect most British expats in Thailand as they have already made other banking arrangements, it does illustrate how living overseas brings its own problems. We also have to worry about the rumors of changes in the Thai taxation system, a flat refusal by the British government to upgrade frozen state pensions and what the immigration bureau may or may not be planning.”
https://www.pattayamail.com/latestnews/ ... ves-441444
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Re: By Barry Kenyon
Many expat grey areas in Thailand’s latest income tax policy
By Barry Kenyon
September 27, 2023
Prime Minister Srettha Thavisin couldn’t be clearer: “You should pay tax on income you earn no matter how you earn it.” He was referring to the revenue department’s “clarification” that, from January 2024, it planned to the tax foreign income on all individuals, Thai or foreign, who have resided annually in the country for over six months. The department’s statement specifically closed the loophole, under existing law, that anyone could escape the tax by delaying transfer of the funds until a later tax year, for example by holding it in offshore funds.
It is commonly understood that the incoming Pheu Thai government must raise mega-funds for its welfare policies, for example the US$16 billion (560 billion Thai baht) wallet scheme to pay 10,000 baht to all adult Thais as a regenerative economic move. However, the policy has clearly shocked Thailand’s expat community who thought they were tax-free unless officially working in Thailand. Indeed, the previous government, led by general Prayut Chan-o-cha, had marketed its long stay visas, especially Elite, precisely on the grounds that foreigners were mostly excused paying income tax here.
The first grey area for expats is registration. Contrary to some reports, there will be no deduction of funds on arrival. The system initially will be self-registration with taxable expats staying in Thailand longer than 180 days registering online with the revenue authority to receive a TIN or Tax Identification Number. Presumably, there will be further guidance on this procedure in later announcements. Of course, the self-registration is backed up by all the details of foreign transactions which are now easier to trace thanks to technological advancement. Wealthy expats are likely to choose a tax lawyer to fill in forms on their behalf.
The next ambiguity for foreigners is the double taxation agreement (DTA) which exists between 61 countries and Thailand. This means that some expats can benefit from Thai taxation relief by tax exemptions or tax credits where specific conditions are fulfilled. The most frequent example is pension income (state or employment) which is taxed in the source country. Not to mention that the income might well be taxed in the home country even though there is no formal agreement with Thailand. This whole area needs official clarification to avoid a bureaucratic nightmare and gross disillusionment.
The latest income tax rules won’t apply to a foreigner residing in Thailand for less than 180 days in a year. If he or she transferred, say, four million baht to Thailand to purchase a condominium unit, personal income tax as recently defined would not operate. But an expat, living here for most of the year, could find a similar transfer might get tangled in the revenue net. Many other examples, beyond property purchases and sales, could be quoted to illustrate the devil will be in the detail. What is absolutely clear is that the Thai income tax tentacles are broadening beyond rich Thais earning cash abroad (or at home) and hiding it in offshore accounts or foreign banks.
For the past four decades, foreigners (unless working here with employment permits) have mostly been excused interference by the revenue department. It has been a discretion not a right. Some Thais have also been included in this category, for example overseas workers transmitting small amounts back to their families in Thailand. There is already much talk in expat circles about quitting Thailand. What is required is a policy statement by the revenue or Cabinet authorities even whilst acknowledging that a complex situation is in a trial period and may remain so for months. Sometimes silence is the best policy. Not in this case.
https://www.pattayamail.com/latestnews/ ... icy-441721
By Barry Kenyon
September 27, 2023
Prime Minister Srettha Thavisin couldn’t be clearer: “You should pay tax on income you earn no matter how you earn it.” He was referring to the revenue department’s “clarification” that, from January 2024, it planned to the tax foreign income on all individuals, Thai or foreign, who have resided annually in the country for over six months. The department’s statement specifically closed the loophole, under existing law, that anyone could escape the tax by delaying transfer of the funds until a later tax year, for example by holding it in offshore funds.
It is commonly understood that the incoming Pheu Thai government must raise mega-funds for its welfare policies, for example the US$16 billion (560 billion Thai baht) wallet scheme to pay 10,000 baht to all adult Thais as a regenerative economic move. However, the policy has clearly shocked Thailand’s expat community who thought they were tax-free unless officially working in Thailand. Indeed, the previous government, led by general Prayut Chan-o-cha, had marketed its long stay visas, especially Elite, precisely on the grounds that foreigners were mostly excused paying income tax here.
The first grey area for expats is registration. Contrary to some reports, there will be no deduction of funds on arrival. The system initially will be self-registration with taxable expats staying in Thailand longer than 180 days registering online with the revenue authority to receive a TIN or Tax Identification Number. Presumably, there will be further guidance on this procedure in later announcements. Of course, the self-registration is backed up by all the details of foreign transactions which are now easier to trace thanks to technological advancement. Wealthy expats are likely to choose a tax lawyer to fill in forms on their behalf.
The next ambiguity for foreigners is the double taxation agreement (DTA) which exists between 61 countries and Thailand. This means that some expats can benefit from Thai taxation relief by tax exemptions or tax credits where specific conditions are fulfilled. The most frequent example is pension income (state or employment) which is taxed in the source country. Not to mention that the income might well be taxed in the home country even though there is no formal agreement with Thailand. This whole area needs official clarification to avoid a bureaucratic nightmare and gross disillusionment.
The latest income tax rules won’t apply to a foreigner residing in Thailand for less than 180 days in a year. If he or she transferred, say, four million baht to Thailand to purchase a condominium unit, personal income tax as recently defined would not operate. But an expat, living here for most of the year, could find a similar transfer might get tangled in the revenue net. Many other examples, beyond property purchases and sales, could be quoted to illustrate the devil will be in the detail. What is absolutely clear is that the Thai income tax tentacles are broadening beyond rich Thais earning cash abroad (or at home) and hiding it in offshore accounts or foreign banks.
For the past four decades, foreigners (unless working here with employment permits) have mostly been excused interference by the revenue department. It has been a discretion not a right. Some Thais have also been included in this category, for example overseas workers transmitting small amounts back to their families in Thailand. There is already much talk in expat circles about quitting Thailand. What is required is a policy statement by the revenue or Cabinet authorities even whilst acknowledging that a complex situation is in a trial period and may remain so for months. Sometimes silence is the best policy. Not in this case.
https://www.pattayamail.com/latestnews/ ... icy-441721
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Gaybutton
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Re: By Barry Kenyon
They better make it crystal clear whether expats on the retirement visa and their income consists of pension payments and/or Social Security are going to be subject to paying a Thai income tax. And they better do it quickly unless they want to see a lot of expats leaving Thailand - and taking their money held in Thai bank accounts, including that 800,000 baht, with them. What would that do for that sacred, all important "good image" of Thailand?
It seems simple enough to me. A clear statement from the Prime Minister telling us if we are going to be taxed or not. None of this ambiguity. It is perfectly legitimate for expats to want to know where they stand, and where the government plans for them to stand, financially.
Re: By Barry Kenyon
Considering the topic is double taxation, you're optimistic. When they sort it out, the explanation documents might be into hundreds of pages.
There's a clue in the title of double taxation agreements & we should expect people will not be double taxed. That is not paying the full tax in one country and then the full tax in another country as well.
However, if any marginal tax rate is higher in Thailand than your own country, I believe charging the extra tax in Thailand would be permitted.
Re: By Barry Kenyon
Sure...clear as mud:Barry Kenyon wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 3:33 pm Prime Minister Srettha Thavisin couldn’t be clearer: “You should pay tax on income you earn no matter how you earn it.”
Payments such as pensions and annuities, welfare benefits, unemployment compensation, worker's compensation benefits, and social security benefits are not considered "earned income" in tax law, and this is what matters the most to retired expats.
I don't believe the PM meant to suggest that expat retirees in Thailand would start to have this type of income taxed. These benefits are not classified as "earned income", nor could Thailand double tax these types of payments anyway unless it withdraws itself from the Double Tax Agreements it has with 61 countries. Nothing ambiguous about this at all.
I think this is where the confusion started - where the confusion remains - and what needs to be clarified the most.
Furthermore, anyone who believes that Thailand has somehow acquired the advanced technology and technical skills needed to begin tracking the history of millions (if not tens of millions) of international financial transactions has to be on yaba.
Re: By Barry Kenyon
For which country are you quoting "tax law" and what is your source ?
Whether you define it as "earned income" may turn out to be irrelevant.
This is all "income" and where I live, much of this income IS taxable, just as long as your total income is above the tax free allowance.
Thailand could choose to do the same.
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Gaybutton
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Re: By Barry Kenyon
That is precisely the point. Many foreigners are saying the same thing. The problem is neither Srettha nor anyone else in Thai government is also saying the same thing or even partly the same thing. I think that is what has so many people upset.
I'm not worried about it because I believe most expats, including myself, are not going to be subject to this tax. However, I would be much happier if the Thai government would give us the same assurances that we're all busy giving each other. They must know this is upsetting a large number of people, but they don't seem to mind keeping us in the dark about it.
I see nothing complicated here. If you're going to tax us, then say so. If you're not going to tax us, then say so. It would be awfully hard to convince me the Thai government doesn't already know damned well what they're going to do.
Re: By Barry Kenyon
Some light reading on the double taxation agreement:
US
https://www.hlbthai.com/double-tax-agre ... -examples/
UK
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... x-treaties
Actually doing the tax return tends to require reference to numerous other documents.
US
https://www.hlbthai.com/double-tax-agre ... -examples/
UK
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... x-treaties
Actually doing the tax return tends to require reference to numerous other documents.
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Gaybutton
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Re: By Barry Kenyon
Seems to me what the agreements boil down to is if you are paying income tax in your home country, then you don't have to pay income tax, at least in Thailand, if Thailand and your home country have the double tax agreement in place, even if Thailand considers you a resident for tax purposes.
That's the way I see it. I'm waiting for the Thai government to give us assurances they see it the same way.
In my opinion, further speculation within our ranks is meaningless. We need to hear from the Thai government in plain, simple language - "Expats living in Thailand under the retirement visa, we have a double tax agreement with your home country. As long as you are paying income tax to your home country, you will not be liable for paying Thai income tax too."
I don't see why it needs to be any more complicated than that - and that's what I want to hear. If there is a hard part to making that clear to us, I don't know what it is.
That's the way I see it. I'm waiting for the Thai government to give us assurances they see it the same way.
In my opinion, further speculation within our ranks is meaningless. We need to hear from the Thai government in plain, simple language - "Expats living in Thailand under the retirement visa, we have a double tax agreement with your home country. As long as you are paying income tax to your home country, you will not be liable for paying Thai income tax too."
I don't see why it needs to be any more complicated than that - and that's what I want to hear. If there is a hard part to making that clear to us, I don't know what it is.