Retirement extension

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mahjongguy
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Re: Retirement extension

Post by mahjongguy »

Up2u wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:49 am
She explained the money did not come from outside Thailand(which it did).
The money might not have come from outside Thailand, and there's no way to predict whether it will or won't. When you arrange a transfer, they check first to see if they happen to have sufficient funds of their own in Thailand to cover it. Even if they don't, they may route the incoming money via another Thai bank then to yours.

That's why they have good rates for small(ish) transfers but not for larger ones.

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Re: Retirement extension

Post by Dodger »

Gaybutton wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:21 am
Undaunted wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:15 am
a friend who is using the monthly 65,000 option was very happy with the service he had from “Key Visa”.
If you can find out from your friend what their fee is, please let us know. Also, I don't know what a visa agent does that people can't do themselves.

Once again I see panic needlessly brewing, at least at this point, considering as far as I know, nobody has even checked with immigration to find out if a problem actually even exists. And if it turns out a problem really does exist, before I would start trying to do anything I would want to know what immigration says to do.
I'm not suggesting that people overreact to this, but based on my interactions with Jomtien Immigration, they want to see a Thai bank listing of monthly foreign deposits in order to approve the application for extension using the 65k method plain and simple. In order for the bank to produce a list of foreign transactions they filter out all transactions shown in your passbook which are not coded FTT (Foreign Transfer) and print only the transactions coded FTT as required by Immigration. Knowing this, I really believe people would have a problem trying to explain to Immigration why they can't produce this. At least from my discussions with them they show no flexibility when it comes to this.

One possible option for those using Transferwise would be to request an FTT listing for their account from the intermediary bank that Transferwise used during this current period as a short term fix.

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Re: Retirement extension

Post by gera »

I carefully studied the website for Elite card. Among other things they say that Thai residents for tax purpose (i.e. , staying more than 180 days per financial year) are subject to local taxation. And not only for the local income but also overseas income like pensions , if they are transferred to Thailand the same year as obtained. It means that immediate transfers of pensions and social security payments to Thailand are taxable locally at least in theory. Obviously, it is not enforced for now. But with more and more various rules implemented, it may become an issue in the future. IMHO , it gives another reason to use 800000 baht route (preferably with one time transfer from an overseas account).

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Gaybutton
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Re: Retirement extension

Post by Gaybutton »

Dodger wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:37 pm
I really believe people would have a problem trying to explain to Immigration why they can't produce this.
Maybe not. This problem is a new one, so immigration has never been confronted with it before. Don't you think talking to immigration is at least worth a try? Again, if they won't accept what's in your bank passbook, I would ask them what to do and what they need. Let immigration be who tells you what to do instead of coming up with solutions on your own or solutions based on message board posts - solutions you can't be certain immigration will accept. I would much rather have immigration tell me what they want instead of assuming I have an acceptable solution, and then finding out the hard way that I was wrong.

If I was relying on my visa extension via the 65,000 baht method, that's what I would do.

Murphy's Law always keeps coming into play. Just when we think we've got the problems solved and know what to do, there always seems to be some new problem that pops up.

I have a feeling many more farang are going to be bald by the time we finish tearing our hair out every time something else happens with immigration - especially when none of these problems were our own fault.

To me, another crazy problem is the 800,000 baht method. As far as I can tell, the reason they want 800,000 baht in a Thai bank account in the first place is to make sure we have enough money to pay if something happens, such as hospital bills. But if we use the money to pay, now we lose our visa. And even if people do have 800,000 baht in a Thai bank account, what's to stop them from skipping the country without paying anyway, and withdrawing the money before Thailand has a chance to do anything about it?

Welcome to the latest edition of both my "I Don't Get It" list and Catch-22 . . .

fountainhall

Re: Retirement extension

Post by fountainhall »

gera wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:55 pm
Among other things they say that Thai residents for tax purpose (i.e. , staying more than 180 days per financial year) are subject to local taxation. And not only for the local income but also overseas income like pensions , if they are transferred to Thailand the same year as obtained.
I have been seriously giving thought to joining the Thailand Elite programme, despite the expense. I cannot find this information on the official Thailand Elite site. But I may not be looking closely enough. Can gera kindly direct us to the relevant condition?

I have one friend who joined the Elite Easy Access 5-year card a year ago. He owns a large apartment here and spent the majority of the last year in Thailand - probably around 280 days. Although he has a big pension and stock options, he does not have the pension remitted to Thailand. Instead he made a few transfers with large dollops of cash from overseas into his account here. He has never been informed by Thailand Elite of any requirement to pay local taxes on overseas remittances. In any case I believe like those holding O and O-A visas, he is not permitted to work here.

I do wonder about the condition "if they are transferred in the same year as obtained." I can't work out how anyone in Thailand would know this?

I can only find this on a ThaiVsa forum -
I talked with numerous tax advisors and accountants and the answer was that a Thai Elite member cannot become a tax resident and is not able to obtain a tax id because he or she cannot be employed in the country.
https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/107692 ... ax-issues/

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Re: Retirement extension

Post by Dodger »

gera wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:55 pm
I carefully studied the website for Elite card. Among other things they say that Thai residents for tax purpose (i.e. , staying more than 180 days per financial year) are subject to local taxation. And not only for the local income but also overseas income like pensions , if they are transferred to Thailand the same year as obtained. It means that immediate transfers of pensions and social security payments to Thailand are taxable locally at least in theory. Obviously, it is not enforced for now. But with more and more various rules implemented, it may become an issue in the future. IMHO , it gives another reason to use 800000 baht route (preferably with one time transfer from an overseas account).
I think there may be some confusion here:

Any foreigner who stays in Thailand for more than 180 days is considered a Thai resident.

Thai residents (expats) who are working in Thailand on a work permit are of course taxed. Thai residents who earn income from a foreign country are also subject to pay tax on foreign-source earned income only if the income is brought into Thailand in the year derived

Thai residents (expats) do not pay tax on Unearned Income. Unearned income is all income that is not earned such as Social Security benefits, pensions, State disability payments, unemployment benefits, interest income, dividends and cash from friends and relatives.
.

fountainhall

Re: Retirement extension

Post by fountainhall »

Dodger wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:09 pm
Thai residents (expats) who are working in Thailand on a work permit are of course taxed. Thai residents who are not working in Thailand but earn income from a foreign country are also subject to pay tax on foreign-source earned income only if the income is brought into Thailand in the year derived
I'm still curious to understand how the Thai tax authorities could possibly discover if the income sent into Thailand was earned in the same year.

I ran a small company in Hong Kong until 2017. So I was earning income overseas for 16 years whilst living in Thailand. All the company's income went into the company account at HSBC in Hong Kong. Much of it went to paying the usual admin and other fixed costs. Some was paid to me - but not as a fixed salary. I had it transferred into my own HSBC account. There was other income in that account from previous years, dividends etc. I have always gone the Bt. 800,000 route for visa renewal. So I was remitting cash into Thailand annually, sometimes in two or three tranches. I have absolutely no idea if the remittance was money which had actually been earned that year or money that had been sitting in the account from earlier years. If I don't know, how could the Thai tax people could know?

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Re: Retirement extension

Post by mahjongguy »

fountainhall wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:29 pm
... I was remitting cash into Thailand annually, sometimes in two or three tranches. I have absolutely no idea if the remittance was money which had actually been earned that year or money that had been sitting in the account from earlier years. If I don't know, how could the Thai tax people could know?
They don't know. Can't know. Also don't appear to care much, though if you apply for a refund of withheld bank interest they can take that opportunity to quiz you about the source of your income if they want.

Since Thailand has tax treaties with so many countries, there really isn't much overseas income the Revenue Department could hope to tax, but I did encounter one clerk at the Jomtien RD who insisted on seeing my U.S. tax filing to assure herself that I was paying the IRS tax on my Social Security. Since government pensions are specifically excluded by treaty, no matter when the money is brought in, I would have liked to push back on her demand but, hey, it wasn't a big deal to zip back to the house and print a copy of my 1040, so why antagonize her? And when I handed it to her, she just tossed it into my folder without a glance.

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Re: Retirement extension

Post by gera »

fountainhall wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:46 pm
gera wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:55 pm
Among other things they say that Thai residents for tax purpose (i.e. , staying more than 180 days per financial year) are subject to local taxation. And not only for the local income but also overseas income like pensions , if they are transferred to Thailand the same year as obtained.
I have been seriously giving thought to joining the Thailand Elite programme, despite the expense. I cannot find this information on the official Thailand Elite site. But I may not be looking closely enough. Can gera kindly direct us to the relevant condition?

I have one friend who joined the Elite Easy Access 5-year card a year ago. He owns a large apartment here and spent the majority of the last year in Thailand - probably around 280 days. Although he has a big pension and stock options, he does not have the pension remitted to Thailand. Instead he made a few transfers with large dollops of cash from overseas into his account here. He has never been informed by Thailand Elite of any requirement to pay local taxes on overseas remittances. In any case I believe like those holding O and O-A visas, he is not permitted to work here.

I do wonder about the condition "if they are transferred in the same year as obtained." I can't work out how anyone in Thailand would know this?

I can only find this on a ThaiVsa forum -
I talked with numerous tax advisors and accountants and the answer was that a Thai Elite member cannot become a tax resident and is not able to obtain a tax id because he or she cannot be employed in the country.
https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/107692 ... ax-issues/
This is from FAQ section of elite program, As you can see pensions are taxable if they brought to Thailand within the same year. Now, I do not know what countries have tax treaties about double taxation but in US only part of social security is taxable anyway.
"In terms of the taxation in Thailand, individuals residing in Thailand may be subject to personal income tax in Thailand, depending on the source of income and the duration of their stay in the country.

Individuals are deemed to be tax resident in Thailand only if they stay in Thailand for an aggregate period of not less than 180 days within a calendar year. Any Thai or foreign individual who derives assessable income from sources in Thailand or for work performed in Thailand is liable to pay personal income tax, whether or not such income is paid within or outside Thailand.

In addition, a resident of Thailand is liable to personal income tax on assessable income derived from sources outside Thailand and remitted into Thailand in the same year in which such income is derived (remittance in the following year is not subject to tax).

The same logic applies to all types of income (including pensions, capital gains, interest, etc.). They are tax-free if they are earned abroad (from foreign sources/companies/shares) and not brought into Thailand within the same tax year."

fountainhall

Re: Retirement extension

Post by fountainhall »

I have been through the all the FAQs on the official Thailand Elite website and I regret I still can find nothing about tax. Can you kindly post the exact link?

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