Pattaya Brits join the campaign against new British visa regulations
By Barry Kenyon
December 19, 2023
A group of Brits, currently in Pattaya, have written to UK premier Rishi Sunak to complain about the latest family visa rule changes which require a sponsor to have 38,700 pounds in salary or pensions before a spouse, or family member, can be considered for entry to Britain. The current floor level is 18,600 pounds with the changes due to be introduced early next year. However, British government ministers have in recent days talked of “transitional arrangements” which likely mean the huge increase will apply only to new applications and not to those already in UK who need to apply for an extension on their initial time allowance of 30 months.
David Cole said he and his Thai wife were currently on holiday in Thailand, but his spouse would need to apply in UK for an extension on her family visa next summer. He said he was a restaurant chef in Newcastle on Tyne where wages were much lower than in London. “Unless the government has a change of heart, it looks like we will become a Skype family with me in UK and Noy stuck in Thailand,” he said. He added he had persuaded four other Brits in a similar position to sign a joint letter to Sunak headed, “This is an unworthy tax on love”.
Philip Ashby’s problem is rather different. He recently married his Thai wife Nada and they were intending to apply for the initial visa next year. Philip lives on savings and investments and was intending to put up 62,500 pounds in his British bank account, the alternative to 18,600 pounds in salary or earned income. “Now I suddenly find I may need to have more than double the amount in bank cash as the goal posts move to 38,700 pounds.” He doubted he and Nada could now live in UK unless the policy changed.
Home secretary James Cleverly said the current limit had been in force for over a decade and it was a longstanding rule that sponsors must have sufficient funds to cover non-British family members living in UK. He did think though that the unpublished transitional arrangements might assist those already in the system. On this scenario, David (above) might escape the increase whereas Philip would not. The sum of 38,700 pounds is also the sum required as a confirmed salary if skilled workers apply for a job in UK. Why the same figure is being used to assess family members on a very different visa has not been explained.
https://www.pattayamail.com/latestnews/ ... ons-448070
By Barry Kenyon
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Gaybutton
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Re: By Barry Kenyon
The UK has had about 1.2 million immigrants in the year to June 2023 (Source: ONS). That's a lot for an already crowded island.Barry Kenyon wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 5:20 am A group of Brits, currently in Pattaya, have written to UK premier Rishi Sunak to complain about the latest family visa rule changes which require a sponsor to have 38,700 pounds in salary or pensions before a spouse, or family member, can be considered for entry to Britain.
I and many other voters fully support measures to reduce this.
Also, our government should consider getting the navy to stop illegal immigrant boats.
Incidentally, I have no objection to the handful of Thai immigrants. The problem is more with one other category who arrive in larger numbers, often illegally and don't fit in so well.
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Gaybutton
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Re: By Barry Kenyon
Automatic medical insurance likely not necessary after all
By Barry Kenyon
December 21, 2023
The tourism and sports minister Sudawan Wangsuphakijkosol has diluted the prime minister’s promise that all foreign tourists would be covered for injuries and death from the new year. The minister said that universal insurance was not strictly needed as the foreign tourists’ compensation assistance fund is traditionally underspent. Instead the minister suggested a central government grant of 50 million baht to cover likely claims in 2024.
The foreign tourists’ fund was set up several years ago to grant compensation on a discretionary basis where foreign visitors were injured or killed in accidents, such as a ferry sinking or a motorway pile up. It has also been used to calm nerves in sensational, well-publicized cases where overseas tourists were victims in shooting incidents or where Thai public services had been sub-standard. The scheme authorizes a maximum of 500,000 baht for medical treatment and 1 million baht for post-mortem compensation to relatives.
There is no suggestion that the fund will be used for routine medical treatment, nor does it bypass the need for visitors to carry their own insurance which is legally compulsory only for some longstay visa holders. The fund can’t be overspent since it is handled by the government on a discretionary basis. Mr Sudawan’s suggestion also avoids disputes about hospital treatment created by a universal medical compensation which is bound to have ambiguous details if drawn up in haste in time for the new year.
https://www.pattayamail.com/latestnews/ ... all-448200
By Barry Kenyon
December 21, 2023
The tourism and sports minister Sudawan Wangsuphakijkosol has diluted the prime minister’s promise that all foreign tourists would be covered for injuries and death from the new year. The minister said that universal insurance was not strictly needed as the foreign tourists’ compensation assistance fund is traditionally underspent. Instead the minister suggested a central government grant of 50 million baht to cover likely claims in 2024.
The foreign tourists’ fund was set up several years ago to grant compensation on a discretionary basis where foreign visitors were injured or killed in accidents, such as a ferry sinking or a motorway pile up. It has also been used to calm nerves in sensational, well-publicized cases where overseas tourists were victims in shooting incidents or where Thai public services had been sub-standard. The scheme authorizes a maximum of 500,000 baht for medical treatment and 1 million baht for post-mortem compensation to relatives.
There is no suggestion that the fund will be used for routine medical treatment, nor does it bypass the need for visitors to carry their own insurance which is legally compulsory only for some longstay visa holders. The fund can’t be overspent since it is handled by the government on a discretionary basis. Mr Sudawan’s suggestion also avoids disputes about hospital treatment created by a universal medical compensation which is bound to have ambiguous details if drawn up in haste in time for the new year.
https://www.pattayamail.com/latestnews/ ... all-448200
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Re: By Barry Kenyon
UK government revises family visa income hike
By Barry Kenyon
December 22, 2023
In an unexpected move, British home secretary James Cleverly has partially climbed down over his plan to raise the minimum annual salary level of UK-based sponsors from 18,600 pounds to 38,700 pounds. Most family visas are issued to the foreign wives of British nationals wishing to settle in Britain, but can also cover children or other close relatives. Mr Cleverly had earlier claimed that the huge increase was necessary both to cut immigration levels into the UK and because the income floor had not been raised for over a decade.
In the compromise move, the minimum salary level for sponsors will now be 29,000 pounds from next spring, with later increases reserved for an indefinite future. Critics had said the earlier huge increase in the salary level of sponsors was a tax on love or created Skype families as the spouses of British nationals would not be able to live in UK. Family visas, which allow immigrants the right to work legally in UK, are the normal route to apply for permanent residence. However, that process cannot start until five years have elapsed from initial entry.
Thai nationals are not a major group in the applications for UK family visas and are thought to number only several dozen annually. The visa is expensive to process as there are application submission fees plus health and insurance charges as well as an English-language competency examination to pass. The majority of applications for the family visa are from the Indian sub-continent. In cases of refusal, there is an appeal process to the UK immigration tribunal which can take up to a year to process.
https://www.pattayamail.com/latestnews/ ... ike-448301
By Barry Kenyon
December 22, 2023
In an unexpected move, British home secretary James Cleverly has partially climbed down over his plan to raise the minimum annual salary level of UK-based sponsors from 18,600 pounds to 38,700 pounds. Most family visas are issued to the foreign wives of British nationals wishing to settle in Britain, but can also cover children or other close relatives. Mr Cleverly had earlier claimed that the huge increase was necessary both to cut immigration levels into the UK and because the income floor had not been raised for over a decade.
In the compromise move, the minimum salary level for sponsors will now be 29,000 pounds from next spring, with later increases reserved for an indefinite future. Critics had said the earlier huge increase in the salary level of sponsors was a tax on love or created Skype families as the spouses of British nationals would not be able to live in UK. Family visas, which allow immigrants the right to work legally in UK, are the normal route to apply for permanent residence. However, that process cannot start until five years have elapsed from initial entry.
Thai nationals are not a major group in the applications for UK family visas and are thought to number only several dozen annually. The visa is expensive to process as there are application submission fees plus health and insurance charges as well as an English-language competency examination to pass. The majority of applications for the family visa are from the Indian sub-continent. In cases of refusal, there is an appeal process to the UK immigration tribunal which can take up to a year to process.
https://www.pattayamail.com/latestnews/ ... ike-448301
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Gaybutton
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Re: By Barry Kenyon
Speaking only for myself, while I agree with what Barry is saying, along with all the other hassles, expenses, and inconveniences we've talked about, I am still glad I chose Thailand as my retirement destination and I am hoping to spend the rest of my life here in Thailand. If I had known then what I know now, I still would choose Thailand as my place to be. There are plenty of complaints, many serious and legitimate and many rather frivolous, but despite those, I am still happy to be here and grateful to Thailand for making it possible.
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Thailand’s popularity as a retirement destination nearing crunch point
By Barry Kenyon
December 28, 2023
The tweak in the Thai Revenue rules, affecting both Thai and foreign tax residents, means that income derived from assessable foreign sources is to be taxable from new year’s day 2024. The exact impact and scope remain fog-bound, but it is no exaggeration to say that the move has put the cat firmly amongst the expat pigeons who spend six months or more in the kingdom in a calendar year. The fiscal move may indeed be aimed at wealthy Thais with offshore bank accounts or profits from overseas businesses, but the typical expat risks being trapped in the crossfire.
The Thai tax authority is still mulling the detail. Officers know that whatever tax is due on cash transferred to Thailand during 2024 won’t appear on an individual’s tax return until 2025. So no hurry in their eyes. Most expats, of course, have barely heard of a Thai tin (tax identification number), let alone filled one in. And that’s part of the problem. Many older expats hate the idea of being ensnared in Thai financial bureaucracy and, potentially, needing to hire a tax lawyer. Or, of course, leave the country for pastures new.
It may not come to that. For example, the Revenue has not issued a ruling on whether foreign income (such as pensions) are taxable under the enforcement decree. It may come down to the detail in double taxation agreements which Thailand has made with scores of countries. But they are all different in scope and most readers will require an expert to decipher the meaning of some of the clauses. Many Bangkok-based accountancy and legal firms are already anticipating a huge rise in the number of troubled clients.
What is at stake, of course, is Thailand’s future as a retirement base. Over the years, Thailand has built up a reputation as a safe and attractive home for expats. Many have bought condominium units or set up a company to purchase a house. In future, there is no guarantee that foreigners sending money for these purposes won’t be taxed on the lump sum. If so, the prospects for the Thai property market might well take a downward swing without precedent. Whether the Thai government has thought out all the consequences of the Revenue decree seems unlikely.
The Thai Board of Investment has suggested that the solution is for foreigners to apply for the 10 year golden visa, Long Term Residence, as this permits most overseas income to be brought into Thailand without any taxes together, as well as granting other financial and immigration perks. But the LTR isn’t available for retirees unless their annual income is at least US$80,000 a year or they are prepared to invest mega-cash in Thai banks or securities. There is no shield from the Revenue in Elite visas or one year extensions of stay based on retirement, marriage etc.
Although no formal government statistics are issued, there are believed to be 400,000 to 500,000 longstay foreigners in Thailand who could be affected by the latest Revenue move. Some of these hold authorized work permits and already have a tax identification number for their local salary. Others are freelancers conducting online activities and earning from international clients. But most are older expats, retirees existing mainly or solely on pre-taxed pension and social security payments. The challenge for Thailand now is how to maintain competiveness in the global market.
In the meantime, the internet is awash with wrong information such as a fabricated claim that retirees have to prove to immigration that their 800,000 cash lump sum has already been taxed in the home country or that all visa holders over 50 must have a tax identification number when renewing their annual permit. Optimistic bloggers say that the whole Revenue business is a chimera and that nothing will happen in practice, whilst pessimists predict that any foreign cash will have 35 percent automatically deducted on arrival. None of that is true, but continued silence about the government’s intentions can only boost falsehoods, innuendos and gossip. That’s no way to run a taxation system or to market a country to the outside world.
https://www.pattayamail.com/latestnews/ ... int-448911
____________________________________________________________
Thailand’s popularity as a retirement destination nearing crunch point
By Barry Kenyon
December 28, 2023
The tweak in the Thai Revenue rules, affecting both Thai and foreign tax residents, means that income derived from assessable foreign sources is to be taxable from new year’s day 2024. The exact impact and scope remain fog-bound, but it is no exaggeration to say that the move has put the cat firmly amongst the expat pigeons who spend six months or more in the kingdom in a calendar year. The fiscal move may indeed be aimed at wealthy Thais with offshore bank accounts or profits from overseas businesses, but the typical expat risks being trapped in the crossfire.
The Thai tax authority is still mulling the detail. Officers know that whatever tax is due on cash transferred to Thailand during 2024 won’t appear on an individual’s tax return until 2025. So no hurry in their eyes. Most expats, of course, have barely heard of a Thai tin (tax identification number), let alone filled one in. And that’s part of the problem. Many older expats hate the idea of being ensnared in Thai financial bureaucracy and, potentially, needing to hire a tax lawyer. Or, of course, leave the country for pastures new.
It may not come to that. For example, the Revenue has not issued a ruling on whether foreign income (such as pensions) are taxable under the enforcement decree. It may come down to the detail in double taxation agreements which Thailand has made with scores of countries. But they are all different in scope and most readers will require an expert to decipher the meaning of some of the clauses. Many Bangkok-based accountancy and legal firms are already anticipating a huge rise in the number of troubled clients.
What is at stake, of course, is Thailand’s future as a retirement base. Over the years, Thailand has built up a reputation as a safe and attractive home for expats. Many have bought condominium units or set up a company to purchase a house. In future, there is no guarantee that foreigners sending money for these purposes won’t be taxed on the lump sum. If so, the prospects for the Thai property market might well take a downward swing without precedent. Whether the Thai government has thought out all the consequences of the Revenue decree seems unlikely.
The Thai Board of Investment has suggested that the solution is for foreigners to apply for the 10 year golden visa, Long Term Residence, as this permits most overseas income to be brought into Thailand without any taxes together, as well as granting other financial and immigration perks. But the LTR isn’t available for retirees unless their annual income is at least US$80,000 a year or they are prepared to invest mega-cash in Thai banks or securities. There is no shield from the Revenue in Elite visas or one year extensions of stay based on retirement, marriage etc.
Although no formal government statistics are issued, there are believed to be 400,000 to 500,000 longstay foreigners in Thailand who could be affected by the latest Revenue move. Some of these hold authorized work permits and already have a tax identification number for their local salary. Others are freelancers conducting online activities and earning from international clients. But most are older expats, retirees existing mainly or solely on pre-taxed pension and social security payments. The challenge for Thailand now is how to maintain competiveness in the global market.
In the meantime, the internet is awash with wrong information such as a fabricated claim that retirees have to prove to immigration that their 800,000 cash lump sum has already been taxed in the home country or that all visa holders over 50 must have a tax identification number when renewing their annual permit. Optimistic bloggers say that the whole Revenue business is a chimera and that nothing will happen in practice, whilst pessimists predict that any foreign cash will have 35 percent automatically deducted on arrival. None of that is true, but continued silence about the government’s intentions can only boost falsehoods, innuendos and gossip. That’s no way to run a taxation system or to market a country to the outside world.
https://www.pattayamail.com/latestnews/ ... int-448911
Re: By Barry Kenyon
No hurry. Really ?Barry Kenyon wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 8:39 am The Thai tax authority is still mulling the detail. Officers know that whatever tax is due on cash transferred to Thailand during 2024 won’t appear on an individual’s tax return until 2025. So no hurry in their eyes.
Expats could start accruing tax liabilities just 3 days from now.
The extent of the taxation is totally unknown.
So any expat who is spending every penny he earns needs to estimate what taxes would be due and adjust his lifestyle to ensure sufficient money is set aside for the unknown tax bill.
There are good reasons why tax changes are normally announced & fully explained in advance of implementation.
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Gaybutton
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Re: By Barry Kenyon
How can we do that? Estimate based on what? I have no idea what the tax rate might be, whether anything would be tax deductible, what kind of documentation might be required, how and where the double taxation agreement might fit in, or anything else. If it turns out that expats would have to pay an income tax, they haven't even said how to go about paying it or when it would be due.
So far they have told us nothing. Zilch. Nada. For now, the idea that expats would have to pay any kind of income tax at all is still nothing more than an unsubstantiated rumor.
As I've quoted several times, "Don't worry until there is something to worry about." So far, nothing to worry about.
Re: By Barry Kenyon
Firstly, I thought Thailand HAD announced they were going to start taxing overseas income. So that part would not be a rumour.
What we don't know is the extent of that taxation. A worst case assumption would be you pay the same taxes as people pay on income derived within Thailand, except where you have already paid taxes in your home country at the same or a higher rate (the latter being due to double taxation rules).
In 2023, overseas income is outside the scope of Thai taxation.
In 2024, overseas income is supposed to be within the scope of Thai taxation, but they have explained none of the detail. This is really unprofessional. There are zero working days left before 2024.
I would hope Thailand has certain standards of governance & won't levy any taxes until AFTER they have been explained properly. But, as we know, TIT.
What we don't know is the extent of that taxation. A worst case assumption would be you pay the same taxes as people pay on income derived within Thailand, except where you have already paid taxes in your home country at the same or a higher rate (the latter being due to double taxation rules).
That's exactly the problem.
In 2023, overseas income is outside the scope of Thai taxation.
In 2024, overseas income is supposed to be within the scope of Thai taxation, but they have explained none of the detail. This is really unprofessional. There are zero working days left before 2024.
I would hope Thailand has certain standards of governance & won't levy any taxes until AFTER they have been explained properly. But, as we know, TIT.
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Gaybutton
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Re: By Barry Kenyon
Yes, but supposedly not the kind of income retired expats would have - mainly pensions and social security.
I think they have explained none of the detail because they themselves don't even know yet. I also believe there is plenty of disagreement going on behind the scenes.
One thing I'm sure we can count on - if they really do try to start income taxing retired expats, it's going to be a major mess.
If they want our money, instead of trying to tax us they ought to release us from that damned 800,000 baht requirement. They would have much more money coming in than they would ever get from taxes.
See if you can make sense out of this: Thailand has made it obvious they are trying to attract wealthy farang to retire in Thailand. That's why they offer all kinds of visas - for an expensive price. What wealthy farang are going to retire in Thailand if they know their income is going to be taxed?
I really don't think any of us are going to end up having our income taxed in Thailand. I see no evidence of any kind of serious steps being taken to do that. What would they be trying to do, attract farang retirees, even those of us with moderate incomes, or trying to push us out?
Re: By Barry Kenyon
In my mind, demonstrating that an individual has sufficient funds to live in Thailand is a matter independent of taxes.
I trust you agree that any country should have barriers to prevent insolvent pensioners moving to that country ? Considering the interests of the Thai nation, there has to be some minimum limit.
So Thailand has a monthly minimum income requirement. Which seems perfectly reasonable in principle. Wouldn't you agree ?
Now it's also fair to recognise that not everyone would be able to prove that income, so Thailand has generously provided an 800,000 baht alternative.
People who have more difficulty in proving income might include people living off investments with irregular dividend payments. These might far exceed 65,000 per month, but with more variation.
So there are two legal choices available.
Or in Pattaya, there's the third choice of paying an agency about 14,000 per year.
If you're going to tell me you would use the 65,000 method, but would prefer they didn't put so many obstacles in the way, well I'm going to agree about there being too many obstacles.
And then remind you that immigration might prefer you to use an agency that pays tea money, hence the obstacles.