Saving Soi Twilight

[readerc54]

Been away from BKK for about six weeks now and, like most commuters, are just emerging from the withdrawal symptoms. Now I find myself returning to the something that's been troubling me: an endangered species known as soi Twilight.

Spent a generous slug of time on the soi and enjoyed some it but remain troubled by what I can best describe as signs of advanced fatigue, something that all the noise and neon couldn't suppress. Sure, some places were flourishing like Dream Boy. But others--most, actually--seemed to be just managing to get by. In the end, it's all about numbers.

Meanwhile, a city block away, soi 4 was doing just fine thanks mostly to locals. Twilight is surviving on the largess of Chinese visitors and the remnants of what was once a great farang diaspora. This is not the basis of a sound business plan. What to do, I ask myself.

So after much reflection (and equal amount of bourbon), I have a suggestion, thanks to Amazon. The great on-line retailer is opening brick-and-mortar stores. Yes, places where real people go to acquire real things. While we celebrate and the convenience of Hornet, Gay Romeo, Jack'd and Grind'r, we often lament the loss of pursuit in real time. So how about this: promoting the bars of Twilight as meeting grounds for guys who have the technology but still have a hankering for the chase. I'm talking about guys who find it frequently exasperating trying to negotiate actual get togethers with on-line personas.

Haven't thought it through that much but all the establishment would have to provide is the wi-fi; they already have the stools and tables. Once the word got out that this was a way for guys to hook up within eyeshot, the time on line would be minimal because you could just scan the premises and in the process save yourself a hell of a lot of time, nay frustration, in achieving your goal. You'd already know something about the guy from your device.

I know it sounds like I'm just trying to reinvent the dating bars of yesteryear and maybe I am. But maybe I'm just trying to regress a bit to the era when you could sit down at a table inside Telephone on soi 4 and dial the table number of a guy who caught your eye. Wasn't that the GR of the day?

[Undaunted]

But maybe I'm just trying to regress a bit to the era when you could sit down at a table inside Telephone on soi 4 and dial the table number of a guy who caught your eye. Wasn't that the GR of the day?

I too remember those days at the Telephone bar before smart phones. The gay scene in Thailand has changed greatly since then. The need for pick up bars and go go bars has been greatly reduced in favor of the apps. that you mentioned, I think a larger question comes in to play that is the viability of Thailand as a gay destination for anyone other than die hard rich queens.

[thaiworthy]

. . . thanks to Amazon. The great on-line retailer is opening brick-and-mortar stores. Yes, places where real people go to acquire real things.

"Many retail experts and analysts failed to predict the massive success of the Apple Store when it first opened in 2001 because they made the mistake of confusing numbers with feelings. Numbers don’t have feelings; people do. And people drive a great customer experience."

http://www.forbes.com/sites/carminegall ... 34e712118a

However, I think there's plenty of missing letters in this formula of alphabet soup to accurately predict how such a live match would actually happen. It reminds me of the late 70s when desktop computers came on the scene. I was a regular at The Hayloft in North Hollywood, Calif., for movie night way back then. A friend suggested to the bar owner the above scenario. One need only enter into a database the individual's information and perform a match. You didn't even need a Grind'r app to do it. But it never happened. It was not a practical application. It was confusing numbers with feelings. Cruising thrives on anonymity, mystery, spontaneity and convenience. The apps give you that in varying degrees that could never have been accomplished before. You get to spy on folks you may not want to necessarily meet. They get to spy on you without them necessarily wanting to meet you. That is, until the personal spark ignites the charm.

Certainly, if the price is right, your shopping experience may vary. Additionally, if I am the hunter and purchaser of said product, I would not want to be solicited by a price tag. If money is involved, I can pursue them, but I wouldn't want them pursuing me, no matter how insistent this mamasan app might suggest it.

The iPhone does indeed beckon by introducing itself with "take me home" in the brick-and-mortar shop. But it's a passive approach. I doubt very much if Soi Twilite money-boys would be all that passive once they have you online and in their sights. If two people click, love finds you, you don't find it. At the very root level, all of this amounts to nothing more than a technology-driven coming of age "lonely-hearts club."

There is nothing going on in this model that people aren't already doing anyway. You've just localized it to Soi Twilight for the sake of sentimentality.

[Gaybutton]

I think a larger question comes in to play that is the viability of Thailand as a gay destination

Why wouldn't it be? Even if every gay bar in Thailand eventually goes out of business, there would still be just as many gay guys available on the apps - and at prices far less than you would have to fork out in most European countries and the USA.

Suppose you are right. Suppose all the bars close. Where else would you go where you can expect to find a similar number of gays available at similar prices?

[fountainhall]

Where else would you go where you can expect to find a similar number of gays available at similar prices?

I am always somewhat amused when the issue of money comes up. There seems to be an assumption that all guys on the gay apps are effectively money boys. The fact is: the majority are not. It seems to me this is pretty much a Pattaya thing. In Bangkok and other cities there are loads of guys, many in their early 20s, very keen to meet with farang of almost any age when the only role money might play in an encounter is reimbursement for travelling expenses.

I will admit that this sometimes requires more chat time. I have a policy that I’ll always meet someone for a coffee beforehand so we can check each other out. I once met a guy whose photos were taken at least 15 years beforehand. After coffee, we just split up.

I agree Soi Twilight is a mere shadow of what it once was. But I believe this is as much a result of changes in economic circumstances and Thai society in general as it is in poor, often dreadful management. Some years ago, the much missed-poster shamelessmack made a long post on the gaythailand Board revealing how he would radically change the gogo bar model. I thought he had a great idea. But times continue to change and it might not work now. I see no future for Soi Twilight other than its becoming more similar to Soi 4 - and a tourist sideshow. And that is such a pity for in the old days of the original Twilight Bar some 30 and more years ago, the customers were more Thai than farang.

Yet surely we all have to realise that Thailand is not as exclusive as we think it is. One poster on another forum has just waxed lyrical about a visit to Cebu. Not one of the many boys he met was a money boy.

Some years ago I started a thread here about Taiwan and the boys there. Since then I have continued the discussion quite regularly on another forum. I go to Taipei several times a year. Each time I am approached by more guys on the apps than I could possibly meet – and only once has money been requested. He was very open about it and I politely declined. A few times when a guy has taken a train to come into the city I have happily offered travel funds. These have never been accepted. I never cease to be amazed at how many guys there are interested in westerners!

So these are two places where you can go to meet gays without having to splash any cash at all! Sure the airfare may be fractionally more costly but the overall savings will be vastly more. As Cuba and other Central/South American countries continue to open up, I have a feeling Thailand will be seen to become increasingly expensive over the course of a holiday compared to what other parts of the world and what they can offer.

[thaiworthy]

Welcome to the board, Khun Fountainhall!

[Gaybutton]

I am always somewhat amused when the issue of money comes up. There seems to be an assumption that all guys on the gay apps are effectively money boys.

[Undaunted]

Yes, welcome indeed Fountainhall.

[readerc54]

I appreciate the great feedback. Some of the inspiration for the post was those experiences Fountainhall has shared about his travels around East Asia. I was heartened by his comments here. Those of us who keep returning to Thailand at the exclusion of other places tacitly accept that this must be the way things are done--except, of course, in their own country. His fresh take helps us imagine different possibilities.

Is Thailand doomed as a gay destination going forward? I don't see any evidence of that. Even if abandoned by the farang, the well-heeled Chinese and Singaporeans (most of whom that I see are neither fat nor queens) will keep its reputation in tact for the foreseeable future. Yes, prices are indeed rising but that's more a function of the cost of living. Compared to home, westerners still view it as a bargain in terms of airfare, accommodations, entertainment.

Online cruising does thrive a certain degree of anonymity at least for the moment. But I reflect back on the day when standing at a bar and making eye contact with a stranger was how things got going until "personal spark" (as Thaiworthy aptly said) took over. I believe that many of us still yearn for that atmosphere. At our age, we've come to accept rejection well--as if we had a choice, I suppose. One of the reasons I'm still confident the LOS will remain a viable destination if how infrequent rejection is compared to common at our point of departure.

Now does this amount to nothing more than a lonely hearts club? The best way I can answer that is to acknowledge that the heart is a lonely hunter, as Carson McCullers long ago pointed out. For better or worse, most of us have membership in that club--not that there's anything wrong with that. If we didn't experience some degree of loneliness we wouldn't be traveling many thousands of miles to visit or live in Thailand.

If a look ahead 5 years, I see Twilight with fewer show bars (supply and demand will take care of that). What I like about my admittedly sentimental (I prefer to think of it as retro) concept is that it doesn't require mama-sans, screaming ladyboys or "show" pricing. If establishments on soi 4 can manage to thrive without them, you should be able reproduce the formula on Twilight. Yes, it's a long shot but I enjoy the indulgence.

[fountainhall]

Thanks to everyone.

I am sure reader54 is correct in suggesting that other Asians will probably keep Thailand going as a gay destination for some time. But chatting with Asian friends from some other cities who have started to visit Thailand, they are far less interested in Soi Twilight's gogo bars than westerners were/are. In fact looking at one of the larger Asian chat forums with a long travel section, gogo bars rarely if ever feature in the lengthy thread on visiting Thailand. These Asian guys come for saunas, massages, the clubs and discos near Thonglor as well as DJ Station - and Silom Soi 4. They are also far less interested in making hook-ups here through the apps than most westerners. Perhaps that's because far more of them come in pairs or larger groups whereas a much larger percentage of westerners tend to come solo. One group of Taiwan friends has already been here twice in the last 4 weeks and they spent virtually all their evenings in Soi 4!

I would love to see Soi Twilight as it was 30 years ago with the original Twilight sleaze bar (but tarted up a bit!) and Barbiery across Suriwong with its much slicker shows on 2 stages and more than 60 really cute guys. The rosy-tinted spectacle syndrome, no doubt! Was it perhaps so exciting because so many of us at that time were either still in the closet in our home countries or only recently out? We could relax and enjoy this amazing - and amazingly cheap - entertainment in an exotic country that was so different from our home environments? Since then, though, the world has grown much smaller, the gay world has mushroomed, travel has become cheaper and the "orient" for many people is no longer as exotic as it used to be. I believe the fact that the number of younger western gays visiting Thailand is clearly well on the decline does not bode well for the future.

As I suggested earlier I think the only way for Soi Twilight to survive in the longer term is to become more like Soi 4 - with more coffee shops and low to mid-price restaurants. Some gogo bars may adapt and survive there. Sadly I feel they are a dying species.