We're still hearing about this from everybody except anyone in the Thai government. Again all I can say is don't worry until there is something to worry about. So far nothing to worry about. To the best of my knowledge the Thai government isn't even discussing this.
Taxes … more fuel to the fire!!
-
Gaybutton
- Posts: 23442
- Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:21 am
- Location: Thailand
- Has thanked: 3 times
- Been thanked: 1550 times
Re: Taxes … more fuel to the fire!!
Re: Taxes … more fuel to the fire!!
They will almost certainly respect the DTT, so if your advisor has interpreted it correctly, you are OK.Dodger wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2024 5:42 pm I was in contact with a trusted professional resource in the U.S. back when this charade first started and was informed that the DTT protects me from having my pension (which is private) and Social Security income taxed by Thailand. That's all I was really interested in.
Maybe this will change but I doubt it.
-
Gaybutton
- Posts: 23442
- Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:21 am
- Location: Thailand
- Has thanked: 3 times
- Been thanked: 1550 times
Re: Taxes … more fuel to the fire!!
Here is the latest take on it - the author is not identified.
See also: https://www.gaybuttonthai.com/viewtopic ... 47#p115047
________________________________________________________
Expats in Thailand urged not to worry about negative income tax
by Webfact
October 18, 2024
ANALYSIS
Recent discussions around a possible negative income tax (NIT) system in Thailand have caused ripples of concern among expatriate communities. However, it's essential to understand that these developments are still in the discussion phase, and any legislative changes are not imminent.
The concept of NIT is being examined by some factions within the Thai government but translating such discussions into law will take considerable time, writes Barry Kenyon for Pattaya Mail
Deputy Finance Minister Julapun Amornvivat, a supporter of NIT, has indicated that formal implementation might be several years away. At present, there is no concrete framework or schedule for its introduction, warranting a cautious approach rather than alarm.
The fundamental idea behind NIT is to provide financial assistance to individuals who earn below a minimum income level set by the government. This assistance would come in the form of cash subsidies, intended to help groups such as the elderly, unemployed, and those living on marginal incomes.
Payments would likely be managed through digital platforms like Paotong and other e-wallet systems, streamlining the process. However, significant details, such as income thresholds and eligibility criteria, are yet to be fleshed out.
Often referred to as "workfare," NIT implies that every Thai citizen earning even a minimal amount must register with the Thai Revenue Department and submit annual tax returns. This would bring into the fold many low-income workers, like street vendors and massage therapists, who currently exist outside formal taxation.
Over time, as incomes increase, these individuals might become taxpayers rather than benefit recipients, which illustrates a broader governmental objective.
The real purpose behind NIT is to substantially increase Thailand's taxpayer base, which currently stands at less than 30%. Given that Thailand is on the brink of becoming a super-aged society, expanding tax contributions is viewed as essential for maintaining social security systems without straining resources.
Despite these discussions, the introduction of NIT in Thailand is far from a certainty. Implementing such a system would require significant budget allocations and mark a shift towards more centralised control over the population's finances.
Critics often argue that the NIT model suits more advanced economies and may not be suitable for a developing country like Thailand.
For expatriates in Thailand, the implications of a potential NIT system remain entirely speculative. The "crunch time," when such policies may come into effect, is still several years off, and any impacts on expats, if they occur, are yet to be determined.
Until more concrete information emerges, expatriates should remain observant but not overly concerned about these developments. The key is to stay informed and prepared for any changes that may come in the distant future.
https://aseannow.com/topic/1341009-expa ... =241018-04
See also: https://www.gaybuttonthai.com/viewtopic ... 47#p115047
________________________________________________________
Expats in Thailand urged not to worry about negative income tax
by Webfact
October 18, 2024
ANALYSIS
Recent discussions around a possible negative income tax (NIT) system in Thailand have caused ripples of concern among expatriate communities. However, it's essential to understand that these developments are still in the discussion phase, and any legislative changes are not imminent.
The concept of NIT is being examined by some factions within the Thai government but translating such discussions into law will take considerable time, writes Barry Kenyon for Pattaya Mail
Deputy Finance Minister Julapun Amornvivat, a supporter of NIT, has indicated that formal implementation might be several years away. At present, there is no concrete framework or schedule for its introduction, warranting a cautious approach rather than alarm.
The fundamental idea behind NIT is to provide financial assistance to individuals who earn below a minimum income level set by the government. This assistance would come in the form of cash subsidies, intended to help groups such as the elderly, unemployed, and those living on marginal incomes.
Payments would likely be managed through digital platforms like Paotong and other e-wallet systems, streamlining the process. However, significant details, such as income thresholds and eligibility criteria, are yet to be fleshed out.
Often referred to as "workfare," NIT implies that every Thai citizen earning even a minimal amount must register with the Thai Revenue Department and submit annual tax returns. This would bring into the fold many low-income workers, like street vendors and massage therapists, who currently exist outside formal taxation.
Over time, as incomes increase, these individuals might become taxpayers rather than benefit recipients, which illustrates a broader governmental objective.
The real purpose behind NIT is to substantially increase Thailand's taxpayer base, which currently stands at less than 30%. Given that Thailand is on the brink of becoming a super-aged society, expanding tax contributions is viewed as essential for maintaining social security systems without straining resources.
Despite these discussions, the introduction of NIT in Thailand is far from a certainty. Implementing such a system would require significant budget allocations and mark a shift towards more centralised control over the population's finances.
Critics often argue that the NIT model suits more advanced economies and may not be suitable for a developing country like Thailand.
For expatriates in Thailand, the implications of a potential NIT system remain entirely speculative. The "crunch time," when such policies may come into effect, is still several years off, and any impacts on expats, if they occur, are yet to be determined.
Until more concrete information emerges, expatriates should remain observant but not overly concerned about these developments. The key is to stay informed and prepared for any changes that may come in the distant future.
https://aseannow.com/topic/1341009-expa ... =241018-04
-
Gaybutton
- Posts: 23442
- Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:21 am
- Location: Thailand
- Has thanked: 3 times
- Been thanked: 1550 times
Re: Taxes … more fuel to the fire!!
Pattaya tax lawyer: pensioners’ worries and overseas transmitted income
By Victor Wong (Peerasan Wongsri)
November 22, 2024
Having talked to many retired expats over the past year or so, I know that their biggest worry is whether they need to obtain a tax identification number and complete a tax form about income remitted to Thailand from abroad in the calendar year 2024. The very prospect of having to deal with a second revenue department – after the first one in their home country – is decidedly not a welcome thought for those who spend 180 days or more here in a calendar year.
There are certainly retirees here who won’t need to pay any Thai personal income tax in 2025. Those who have not transmitted any cash to Thailand in 2024 are clearly free as are those who can prove they have sent only “old” money, that is savings which were in their home country bank accounts not later than December 31 2023. Some foreign inheritances paid in 2024 might be another exempt category as long as the estate has been assessed by the home country revenue department.
Many expats are confused by so-called double taxation treaties and understandably so. There are over 60 such agreements but they differ enormously in scope and detail. The fact of their existence does not automatically mean a person cannot be taxed in two different jurisdictions. I know that some expats have been to their local Thai Revenue Department (TRD) and apparently been told no need to register if they are living on pensions already taxed. But I would caution that many TRD officers don’t have fluency foreign languages which could lead to confusion or misunderstanding.
The main intention of the Thai government is to broaden the tax base with Thai or foreign “residents” but I am sure the main targets are “big fish” such as those dealing in cryptocurrency, untaxed offshore bank accounts and foreign businesses which have escaped tax hitherto. I doubt very much that TRD will target foreign retirees living on already-taxed foreign pensions. Now that Thailand is a member of the international Common Reporting Standard, it will be much easier to identify “big fish” in international banking procedures.
So should the typical retiree expat obtain a tax identification number and fill in a tax form relating to overseas income early next year? If you don’t, I doubt very much that there will be immediate consequences unless you are bringing in large, untaxed sums. On the other hand, you could be asked in later years to justify your self-exemption. There are many unknowns and it could take years for blurry issues to be resolved. For example, whether use of foreign credit cards in Thailand is remitted income or not is still much debated.
If you would like to speak to a Thai tax lawyer without commitment, I am currently offering a free 15 minutes consultation in my office until the end of the year. The idea is to encourage you to review your own personal position prior to making any decisions. I would only add that registration with TRD and the filling in of a tax form does not mean that you will actually pay any Thai taxes on overseas income. Moreover, it is not necessary at the filing stage to submit supporting documentation to TRD. Whatever you decide to do, it’s best to have taken qualified advice beforehand.
Victor Wong
(Peerasan Wongsri)
Financial Analyst and Tax Expert
Tel: 062 879 5414 Email: [email protected]
https://www.pattayamail.com/latestnews/ ... ome-480825
By Victor Wong (Peerasan Wongsri)
November 22, 2024
Having talked to many retired expats over the past year or so, I know that their biggest worry is whether they need to obtain a tax identification number and complete a tax form about income remitted to Thailand from abroad in the calendar year 2024. The very prospect of having to deal with a second revenue department – after the first one in their home country – is decidedly not a welcome thought for those who spend 180 days or more here in a calendar year.
There are certainly retirees here who won’t need to pay any Thai personal income tax in 2025. Those who have not transmitted any cash to Thailand in 2024 are clearly free as are those who can prove they have sent only “old” money, that is savings which were in their home country bank accounts not later than December 31 2023. Some foreign inheritances paid in 2024 might be another exempt category as long as the estate has been assessed by the home country revenue department.
Many expats are confused by so-called double taxation treaties and understandably so. There are over 60 such agreements but they differ enormously in scope and detail. The fact of their existence does not automatically mean a person cannot be taxed in two different jurisdictions. I know that some expats have been to their local Thai Revenue Department (TRD) and apparently been told no need to register if they are living on pensions already taxed. But I would caution that many TRD officers don’t have fluency foreign languages which could lead to confusion or misunderstanding.
The main intention of the Thai government is to broaden the tax base with Thai or foreign “residents” but I am sure the main targets are “big fish” such as those dealing in cryptocurrency, untaxed offshore bank accounts and foreign businesses which have escaped tax hitherto. I doubt very much that TRD will target foreign retirees living on already-taxed foreign pensions. Now that Thailand is a member of the international Common Reporting Standard, it will be much easier to identify “big fish” in international banking procedures.
So should the typical retiree expat obtain a tax identification number and fill in a tax form relating to overseas income early next year? If you don’t, I doubt very much that there will be immediate consequences unless you are bringing in large, untaxed sums. On the other hand, you could be asked in later years to justify your self-exemption. There are many unknowns and it could take years for blurry issues to be resolved. For example, whether use of foreign credit cards in Thailand is remitted income or not is still much debated.
If you would like to speak to a Thai tax lawyer without commitment, I am currently offering a free 15 minutes consultation in my office until the end of the year. The idea is to encourage you to review your own personal position prior to making any decisions. I would only add that registration with TRD and the filling in of a tax form does not mean that you will actually pay any Thai taxes on overseas income. Moreover, it is not necessary at the filing stage to submit supporting documentation to TRD. Whatever you decide to do, it’s best to have taken qualified advice beforehand.
Victor Wong
(Peerasan Wongsri)
Financial Analyst and Tax Expert
Tel: 062 879 5414 Email: [email protected]
https://www.pattayamail.com/latestnews/ ... ome-480825
Re: Taxes … more fuel to the fire!!
The tax advisor is very much covering his butt with the "I doubt very much.....".
The lack of clarity on tax rules is one thing that's going to discourage wealthy people from moving to Thailand.
People simply want to know what the rules will be so they can calculate their tax liability and make a decision.
The lack of clarity on tax rules is one thing that's going to discourage wealthy people from moving to Thailand.
People simply want to know what the rules will be so they can calculate their tax liability and make a decision.
-
Gaybutton
- Posts: 23442
- Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:21 am
- Location: Thailand
- Has thanked: 3 times
- Been thanked: 1550 times
Re: Taxes … more fuel to the fire!!
Exactly. I think this man is in a better position than others to make an educated guess, but it is still a guess. He is not part of the Thai government. Once again, we are hearing from everybody except anyone at all, officially or unofficially, from the Thai government.
Until the Thai government says anything, I really don't see what the fuss is about.
I agree with him about getting qualified advice before making any moves regarding this, but until the Thai government lets us know what is going on, just who is qualified?
-
Gaybutton
- Posts: 23442
- Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:21 am
- Location: Thailand
- Has thanked: 3 times
- Been thanked: 1550 times
Re: Taxes … more fuel to the fire!!
This is the first time since the brouhaha began that I've seen a government official mention anything at all about taxes. He said nothing about trying to income tax expats on pensions and Social Security. In fact, he favors actually lowering income tax rates in favor of raising the VAT. He is also in favor of weakening the baht, which would mean better exchange rates for us. Sounds good to me.
______________________________
Finance minister floats tax changes
Pichai says raising VAT while cutting personal and corporate tax could have benefits
by Wichit Chantanusornsiri
December 3, 2024
Finance Minister Pichai Chunhavajira has floated the idea of increasing value-added tax (VAT), while reducing corporate and personal income tax rates to strengthen state revenue, drive national development, enhance competitiveness and address domestic disparities.
The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development has introduced guidelines stating that everyone engaged in business should contribute by paying a minimum 15% corporate income tax.
Thailand must also comply; while the country’s current corporate income tax rate is 20%, the challenge is how to reduce it to 15% to remain competitive globally, he said in an address at the Sustainability Forum 2025 on Tuesday.
Regarding personal income tax, Mr Pichai said there is fierce competition to attract skilled workers. Many countries have reduced their tax rates, while Thailand still collects a maximum of 35% from top earners.
Ministry officials have been discussing the possibility of a flat 15% personal income tax rate to attract skilled professionals from abroad.
However, he noted that Thailand’s personal income tax base remains low, while the consumption tax base is relatively high. This base needs to be adjusted.
Thailand’s VAT rate is 7%. The law allows for it to be raised to 10% but successive governments have kept the rate unchanged. Many countries charge double-digit VAT rates, with most ranging from 15-25%, the minister noted.
“Consumption taxes are considered a sensitive issue. However, if we increase the rate in a reasonable and appropriate manner, it could serve as a tool to help low-income individuals,” he said.
“The gap between rich and poor would narrow because we would collect taxes based on the same base for everyone.
“If we set the rate low, it means everyone pays less, and the total revenue collected would be lower. If the rate is increased, wealthier individuals would pay more according to their spending, and overall revenue would increase. This money could be used for measures to assist low-income people and for building infrastructure to enhance the country’s competitiveness.”
Monetary and fiscal policy goals
Mr Pichai also said monetary policy must support the private sector and lower costs for residents, while fiscal policy should focus on increasing revenue to address social inequality and drive economic growth.
He said now is an opportune time for domestic investment, given various global changes, including climate change and geopolitical tensions that are prompting shifts in investment bases.
“Thailand is attracting interest from investors, particularly from the US and China, because of its comprehensive potential, strategic location and significant size compared with other Asian nations, as well as an appropriately sized population. These factors also position Thailand well to support investment in green energy,” said Mr Pichai.
He said investment in Thailand had dropped significantly over the past 20 years, now hovering around 20% of GDP, compared with nearly 40% during economic booms.
Encouragingly, investment interest has picked up gradually from both the US and China, particularly in businesses that promote sustainability, such as green energy.
In the past nine months, the value of projects approved by the Board of Investment amounted to about 700 billion baht. By the end of the year, the figure is is expected to reach 1 trillion baht, the highest in decades.
Mr Pichai stressed the government’s priority is to support structural reforms. Monetary policy, meanwhile, must encourage investment by keeping interest rates low to reduce costs.
While lower interest rates may raise concerns about higher inflation that could burden the public, he noted that inflation this year is likely to remain below 1%, possibly around 0.6% or 0.7%. This presents an opportunity for the Bank of Thailand to reduce interest rates.
In October, the central bank unexpectedly cut its key interest rate by a quarter point to 2.25%. However, it has signalled that a further cut at the final meeting of the year on Dec 18 is unlikely.
Weakening the baht
According to Mr Pichai, the second monetary policy is to weaken the baht. However, he acknowledged that this is challenging due to the high level of confidence in the country, which has led to an influx of US dollars, strengthening the local currency.
There must be a way to manage this, such as by transferring international reserves to another account, a strategy used by other countries, which can help weaken the baht, he said.
However, weakening the baht is not something that can be done on a whim; it requires long-term measures. The policy must aim to stabilise the currency and allow it to weaken gradually, he added.
Keeping debt manageable
As for fiscal policy, Mr Pichai argued that the government must support growth, even if it means higher public debt.
The country’s public debt has risen from $4.8 trillion nine years ago to $12 trillion today, but he emphasised that debt levels are less critical than the ability to repay them, and economic growth allows for more flexible fiscal policies.
Over the past two years, according to Mr Pichai, the budget deficit has averaged over 4% of gross domestic product (GDP), which is considered quite high. The government does not want the deficit to be that large.
Ideally, the deficit should be around 3.2%, but for a growing economy, a deficit of up to 3.75% is acceptable.
If GDP grows by 4-5%, the deficit could reach up to 4.2%. The government is striving to foster GDP growth, with both monetary and fiscal policies having to support this goal.
He said the government must also consider increasing savings. As a society with an ageing population, although Thailand has savings from social security and provident funds, these savings will deplete quickly once people retire. This could become a ticking time bomb, he warned.
https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/ge ... ax-changes
______________________________
Finance minister floats tax changes
Pichai says raising VAT while cutting personal and corporate tax could have benefits
by Wichit Chantanusornsiri
December 3, 2024
Finance Minister Pichai Chunhavajira has floated the idea of increasing value-added tax (VAT), while reducing corporate and personal income tax rates to strengthen state revenue, drive national development, enhance competitiveness and address domestic disparities.
The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development has introduced guidelines stating that everyone engaged in business should contribute by paying a minimum 15% corporate income tax.
Thailand must also comply; while the country’s current corporate income tax rate is 20%, the challenge is how to reduce it to 15% to remain competitive globally, he said in an address at the Sustainability Forum 2025 on Tuesday.
Regarding personal income tax, Mr Pichai said there is fierce competition to attract skilled workers. Many countries have reduced their tax rates, while Thailand still collects a maximum of 35% from top earners.
Ministry officials have been discussing the possibility of a flat 15% personal income tax rate to attract skilled professionals from abroad.
However, he noted that Thailand’s personal income tax base remains low, while the consumption tax base is relatively high. This base needs to be adjusted.
Thailand’s VAT rate is 7%. The law allows for it to be raised to 10% but successive governments have kept the rate unchanged. Many countries charge double-digit VAT rates, with most ranging from 15-25%, the minister noted.
“Consumption taxes are considered a sensitive issue. However, if we increase the rate in a reasonable and appropriate manner, it could serve as a tool to help low-income individuals,” he said.
“The gap between rich and poor would narrow because we would collect taxes based on the same base for everyone.
“If we set the rate low, it means everyone pays less, and the total revenue collected would be lower. If the rate is increased, wealthier individuals would pay more according to their spending, and overall revenue would increase. This money could be used for measures to assist low-income people and for building infrastructure to enhance the country’s competitiveness.”
Monetary and fiscal policy goals
Mr Pichai also said monetary policy must support the private sector and lower costs for residents, while fiscal policy should focus on increasing revenue to address social inequality and drive economic growth.
He said now is an opportune time for domestic investment, given various global changes, including climate change and geopolitical tensions that are prompting shifts in investment bases.
“Thailand is attracting interest from investors, particularly from the US and China, because of its comprehensive potential, strategic location and significant size compared with other Asian nations, as well as an appropriately sized population. These factors also position Thailand well to support investment in green energy,” said Mr Pichai.
He said investment in Thailand had dropped significantly over the past 20 years, now hovering around 20% of GDP, compared with nearly 40% during economic booms.
Encouragingly, investment interest has picked up gradually from both the US and China, particularly in businesses that promote sustainability, such as green energy.
In the past nine months, the value of projects approved by the Board of Investment amounted to about 700 billion baht. By the end of the year, the figure is is expected to reach 1 trillion baht, the highest in decades.
Mr Pichai stressed the government’s priority is to support structural reforms. Monetary policy, meanwhile, must encourage investment by keeping interest rates low to reduce costs.
While lower interest rates may raise concerns about higher inflation that could burden the public, he noted that inflation this year is likely to remain below 1%, possibly around 0.6% or 0.7%. This presents an opportunity for the Bank of Thailand to reduce interest rates.
In October, the central bank unexpectedly cut its key interest rate by a quarter point to 2.25%. However, it has signalled that a further cut at the final meeting of the year on Dec 18 is unlikely.
Weakening the baht
According to Mr Pichai, the second monetary policy is to weaken the baht. However, he acknowledged that this is challenging due to the high level of confidence in the country, which has led to an influx of US dollars, strengthening the local currency.
There must be a way to manage this, such as by transferring international reserves to another account, a strategy used by other countries, which can help weaken the baht, he said.
However, weakening the baht is not something that can be done on a whim; it requires long-term measures. The policy must aim to stabilise the currency and allow it to weaken gradually, he added.
Keeping debt manageable
As for fiscal policy, Mr Pichai argued that the government must support growth, even if it means higher public debt.
The country’s public debt has risen from $4.8 trillion nine years ago to $12 trillion today, but he emphasised that debt levels are less critical than the ability to repay them, and economic growth allows for more flexible fiscal policies.
Over the past two years, according to Mr Pichai, the budget deficit has averaged over 4% of gross domestic product (GDP), which is considered quite high. The government does not want the deficit to be that large.
Ideally, the deficit should be around 3.2%, but for a growing economy, a deficit of up to 3.75% is acceptable.
If GDP grows by 4-5%, the deficit could reach up to 4.2%. The government is striving to foster GDP growth, with both monetary and fiscal policies having to support this goal.
He said the government must also consider increasing savings. As a society with an ageing population, although Thailand has savings from social security and provident funds, these savings will deplete quickly once people retire. This could become a ticking time bomb, he warned.
https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/ge ... ax-changes
-
Gaybutton
- Posts: 23442
- Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:21 am
- Location: Thailand
- Has thanked: 3 times
- Been thanked: 1550 times
Re: Taxes … more fuel to the fire!!
Should you be seeking professional Thai income tax advice yet? Apparently not. If this video is correct, fake professional tax advisor scam artists are already at work in their efforts to relieve you of your money.
I, for one, am doing nothing - NOTHING - until we even know whether Thailand intends to income tax expats living on their pensions and Social Security. So far, although nothing official from the Thai government, everything I've been reading and seeing indicates that Thailand does not intend to impose such income tax. That is not wishful thinking or believing what I want to believe - that is simply observation.
If I ever do need competent tax advice in Thailand, I will get it only from well established professionals. Your embassy might be able to provide lists of reliable advisors.
I, for one, am doing nothing - NOTHING - until we even know whether Thailand intends to income tax expats living on their pensions and Social Security. So far, although nothing official from the Thai government, everything I've been reading and seeing indicates that Thailand does not intend to impose such income tax. That is not wishful thinking or believing what I want to believe - that is simply observation.
If I ever do need competent tax advice in Thailand, I will get it only from well established professionals. Your embassy might be able to provide lists of reliable advisors.
Re: Taxes … more fuel to the fire!!
I've never paid a financial or tax advisor a penny to date.
From what I have seen with friends and family is financial advisors collecting a fee for diabolical advice. I can't imagine it's much better here.
As for Thai taxes, what's the point of getting advice when policy is unclear?
To have them charge you for telling you that?
Or is the whole point to turn taxation into another field where agencies collect tea money on behalf of the corrupt?
[Incidentally, judging by the quality of the second hand books on financial matters in the Canterbury Tales bookshop, there are some well read expats in Pattaya.]
From what I have seen with friends and family is financial advisors collecting a fee for diabolical advice. I can't imagine it's much better here.
As for Thai taxes, what's the point of getting advice when policy is unclear?
To have them charge you for telling you that?
Or is the whole point to turn taxation into another field where agencies collect tea money on behalf of the corrupt?
[Incidentally, judging by the quality of the second hand books on financial matters in the Canterbury Tales bookshop, there are some well read expats in Pattaya.]
