UFOs

[Bob]

It's fairly difficult for any government in this day and age to keep secrets over the longterm. And my guess is that the disclosure happens faster for the bigger secrets (people in general can't keep their mouths shut). One of my brothers was a marine guard at a secret military facility many years back and he ultimately explained that what they were guarding were new types of weapons and aircrafts ("Dick Tracy stuff" is the way he described it). When asked if there was anything "alien" there, he said: "Yes, the food!"

[Gaybutton]

It's fairly difficult for any government in this day and age to keep secrets over the longterm.

Considering in this day and age, half the time CNN manages to find out things before the government does, I wouldn't be surprised if the various government agencies already have guidelines as to how long to expect to keep anything under wraps.

[RichLB]

It's fairly difficult for any government in this day and age to keep secrets over the longterm.

I'm not so sure of that. The Kennedy (both of them) assassinations, Jimmy Hoffa's disappearance, Deepthroat (until he outed himself) and other events have all been kept secret. I'm assuming no one believes the Warren Commission Report.

[Bob]

It's fairly difficult for any government in this day and age to keep secrets over the longterm.

I'm not so sure of that. The Kennedy (both of them) assassinations, Jimmy Hoffa's disappearance, Deepthroat (until he outed himself) and other events have all been kept secret. I'm assuming no one believes the Warren Commission Report.

Geez, I thought you abhored little sidetracks here and there. Kinda fun to see a thread wandering around though, isn't it?

But, you continue to surprise me with what your mind wrestles with. I don't even know where to begin but I'll start with the easy one.

Jimmy Hoffa disappeared about 2 years after a good friend of mine joined the administration division of the MSP (Michigan State Police) and, within a couple of years thereafter, he became part of the corruption division that investigated poltical corruption and high-level crimes. The MSP started the Hoffa investigation and, although the feds turned it into a so-called federal investigation, the MSP investigated it for about 2 decades (with not much happening the last decade or so). In any event, everybody believes he was killed by the mob and, although they actually think they know a couple of the guys who did it, they couldn't indict anybody. I'm not sure why your brought up this one unless imagined it was a government job or that the MSP or FBI is hiding something about the case. They aren't (I heard years and years of what they found or didn't dig up....if you'll excuse the pun).

Do I believe the Warren Commission Report? You bet I do.....and it's a whole lot more credible than anything else. Even if they got any part of it wrong, it wasn't because of some government conspiracy or keeping something secret. A whole lot of extremely able and credible people on that commission (starting but not ending with Chief Justice Earl Warren , Gerald Ford, and Dulles (former CIA chief).

Deepthroat? The government didn't even know who Deepthroat was (only the two reporters and Deepthroat knew that) so my mind is still throbbing at figuring out what this has to do with governments keeping secrets.

You've just got to quit reading the National Enquirer......

[RichLB]

You're right that I've been guilty of sidetracking the UFO discussion and deserve a spanking for that. I've pretty much exhausted my ammunition on the UFO topic so welcomed the chance to broaden my comments to secrecy (only tangentially related, I admit).

Reviewing the examples I put forward, though, I confess I know little about Jimmy Hoffa, where he's buried, or who killed him. To me, that suggests secrecy more than investigatory ignorance.

Debating the results of the Warren Commission would be fun, but that event happened so long ago I suspect few here remain interested. You are one of the few people I've encountered who actually believe Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone assassin (and many believe he was a patsy and not a shooter at all). I'd be interested to read how you defend the findings of the Warren Commission, but think it is more appropriate in another thread. We could also throw in Bobby Kennedy's and Martin Luther King's murders as well.

And, finally, Deep Throat having remained secret for so long, was evidence that it IS indeed possible for secrets to be kept for decades.

Anyway, apologies for the divergence of topic.

[Gaybutton]

You are one of the few people I've encountered who actually believe Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone assassin

There is another. The famous prosecutor, Vincent Bugliosi. He is absolutely convinced Oswald acted alone. If you go to VUZE you can download his audio book, "Reclaiming History." It's hours of Bugliosi delving into virtually every aspect of the JFK assassination, in which he refutes the claims made by conspiracy theorists, ranging from the "magic bullet" to the impossibility of Oswald being able to fire off that many shots within that time period. I'm among the people who think there was more to it than only Oswald, but Bugliosi is very persuasive and convincing. I think anyone interested in the JFK assassination, whether you believe in Oswald acting alone or believe in a conspiracy, ought to download and listen to "Reclaiming History."

[Bob]

Yep, Bugliosi's book was well written and well researched. Even the Warren Report (which I attempted to wade through) was extremely thorough in my view.

For Rich's vivid imagination, I do recall a story about a guy who was a bit challenged but, regardless, he was attempting to take the basic police entry-level exam. He got stuck on the second question (Which was: Who shot Lincoln?), the instructor saw that, and the instructor finally suggested that he simply go home and not come back until he knew the answer. When he got home, his wife asked him how it went. He answered: Pretty damn well. Hell, they even got me working on a murder case already."

When you find Hoffa, Rich, let me know.

[windwalker]

You are one of the few people I've encountered who actually believe Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone assassin (and many believe he was a patsy and not a shooter at all).

Anyway, apologies for the divergence of topic.

Me also! I do believe Oswald was the one and only. An other good book on the subject is "Case Closed" by Gerald Posner.

Like UFOs and their believers, who enjoy conspiracy theories, there are others who are skeptical unless real proof can be presented. What is reality for some is fantasy for others.

[RichLB]

I'm wading through Bugliosi's book (audio version) and only up to cd 2 out of 12. Up to this point it is fun to listen to, but far from compelling. Undoubtedly he will be more convincing further along in his presentation. At this point in his narrative his method has to been to present an unsubstantiated timeline of events leading to the assassination (both Kennedy's activities and Oswald's). If he can support his contentions with more than humor, zeal, and unsubstantiated claims, he might just convince me. I'll let you know.

[RichLB]

For those of you who enjoy speculative "science", you might enjoy the History Channel's "Ancient Aliens". It is available on Vuze. It explores and elaborates on Van Daniken's hypothesis that aliens visited earth in the past and assisted humans in developing our civilizations. In deference to Bob, I won't claim the series provides any answers, but it does raise some confounding questions.