Taxes … more fuel to the fire!!

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Re: Taxes … more fuel to the fire!!

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Gaybutton wrote: Fri Jun 14, 2024 5:22 pm There has been several times over the years where the government not only took notice of what foreigners think, but acted on it. Several immigration issues have been acted upon when foreigners complained. During the Covid crisis the Thai government decided to include foreigners as eligible for free vaccines, when some hospitals were going to charge foreigners 3000 baht on up for vaccines. I got one of the free vaccines at a hospital.
They were even giving out vaccines to tourists & I was grateful to get one, having missed a cut off date in the UK.
However, allowing foreigners to die due to discrimination on vaccine allocation would look very bad.

There is more precedent for taxing foreigners on their overseas income, within the limits of tax treaties. This would not look bad. It is normal.

Gaybutton wrote: Fri Jun 14, 2024 5:22 pmI see no reason to assume the Thai government will ignore tax treaties and ignore the fears of retirement visa expats.
Whilst your state pension looks safe, there is plenty of scope for them to respect tax treaties and still tax expats with other sources of income. I imagine a minority rely purely on state pensions.

One other question.
If they did start taxing foreigners, would those taxpayers now have the same access to certain government services as other taxpayers ?
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Re: Taxes … more fuel to the fire!!

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Jun wrote: Fri Jun 14, 2024 9:05 pm If they did start taxing foreigners, would those taxpayers now have the same access to certain government services as other taxpayers ?
That's another one we have no way of knowing. My guess would be no.

Do you have any particular government services in mind?
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Re: Taxes … more fuel to the fire!!

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Jun wrote: Fri Jun 14, 2024 9:05 pm If they did start taxing foreigners, would those taxpayers now have the same access to certain government services as other taxpayers ?
That's another one we have no way of knowing. My guess would be no.

Do you have any particular government services in mind?
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Re: Taxes … more fuel to the fire!!

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Gaybutton wrote: Fri Jun 14, 2024 10:16 pm Do you have any particular government services in mind?
Well, top of my mind is farang pricing for entry to some state owned parks etc. The taxation excuse for this falls apart when you're paying taxes.

Then I believe there are some more important tax funded benefits, such as basic healthcare.

I thought it was conventional for people resident in a country and paying taxes to get some of the services funded by those taxes.

Speculating on that is perhaps a little premature.
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Re: Taxes … more fuel to the fire!!

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Jun wrote: Sat Jun 15, 2024 12:33 am Well, top of my mind is farang pricing for entry to some state owned parks etc.
Not for all, but for many of those places you get in at the Thai price if you have a Thai driving license. At those entrances I show my license. Sometimes they give me the Thai price and sometimes they don't. You never know, but it's worth a try, especially since the farang price is often as much as 10 times the Thai price, or more.

Some people think if they start taxing us, you'll have to show proof of payment when applying for visas and extensions. It could also affect things like getting a Thai driving license.

Add that to the list of things we just don't know yet.
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Re: Taxes … more fuel to the fire!!

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The most significant to expats part of the article says "If the individual's resident country follows the worldwide income rule, the individual still has to pay taxes to Thailand, resulting in double taxation, unless the foreign country has a double taxation agreement with Thailand."

For most of us expats, our countries do have this agreement. Folks, is that enough reassurance yet?

For a list of the countries that have a double tax agreement with Thailand, see: https://www.rd.go.th/english/766.html

Here's the latest:
______________

Navigating new foreign income rules

EXPLAINER: The Revenue Department is studying adoption of the principle of worldwide income

by Wichit Chantanusornsiri

June 27, 2024

New conditions, effective from 2024, were amended to state regardless of the year the income is brought into Thailand, it is subject to personal income tax.

Benjamin Franklin famously said in reference to the US Constitution 235 years ago that only two things are certain in this world: death and taxes.

The Revenue Department is studying the feasibility of amending the Revenue Code to align with the principle of worldwide income.

The proposed amendment may require individuals who reside in Thailand for at least 180 days, whether continuously or not, to pay taxes on income earned abroad, even if the income is not brought into the country.

Q: What criteria does the Revenue Department use to tax foreign income?

According to the Revenue Code, which is the primary law governing tax collection by the department, it relies on two fundamental principles for income taxation:

1. Source Rule: Under this principle, Thailand taxes individuals on income generated within its borders, irrespective of whether it arises from employment, activities conducted within Thailand, employer activities in Thailand, or property located in Thailand.

2. Resident Rule: Under this principle, Thailand taxes individuals who reside in Thailand for 180 days or more in any tax year (January to December) on their income, whether earned domestically or internationally.

Q: Is all foreign income subject to taxation?

Not all foreign income is taxable, as the department sets conditions using three main criteria. If all three criteria are met, then that income is taxable:

1. The individual must reside in Thailand for an aggregate period of at least 180 days within any given tax year. This establishes the individual as a resident subject to pay income tax to Thailand. Short-term residence is not defined under Thai tax regulations.

2. The individual must have income from abroad, regardless of the country.

3. The individual must bring such foreign income into Thailand. If they bring this income into Thailand in any year, they must pay income tax for that year, in accordance with Section 41 of the Revenue Code, which stipulates that individuals residing in Thailand and earning income from employment or business conducted abroad, or from assets located abroad, must pay income tax when bringing it into Thailand.

Before 2024, individuals with foreign income could reduce their tax burden as the personal income tax conditions for such foreign income specified if it was brought into Thailand in the same year it was earned, it would be subject to income tax by the Revenue Department.

However, if the income was brought into the country after the year it was earned, there would be no tax liability. For example, if an individual earned income from abroad in 2020 and brought it into Thailand in 2021, there would be no tax liability.

New conditions, effective from 2024, were amended to state regardless of the year the income is brought into Thailand, it is subject to personal income tax. The tax rate is progressive, ranging from 5% to 35%.

However, the department provided exceptions to mitigate the impact on taxpayers.

For foreign income earned before Jan 1, 2024, the old conditions still apply. This means if such income is brought into Thailand after the year it was earned, there will be no tax liability on that income.

Q: If foreign income is not brought into the country, is there any tax liability?

If individuals keep income earned abroad out of Thailand, currently there is no tax liability to the local authorities.

The proposed amendment follows the principle of worldwide income, requiring individuals who reside in Thailand for at least 180 days, whether continuously or not, to pay taxes on income earned abroad, even if the income is not brought into the country.

The department is studying examples from other countries that impose taxes on foreign income, such as the US, to evaluate their success and identify challenges they encountered.

Taxing the foreign income of individuals residing in Thailand is complex because of the nature of tax collection.

When income is earned in a foreign country, it must first be taxed in that country. For example, if someone residing in Thailand earns income in the UK, Britain has first priority to collect tax on that income.

If the individual's resident country follows the worldwide income rule, the individual still has to pay taxes to Thailand, resulting in double taxation, unless the foreign country has a double taxation agreement with Thailand.

For instance, if the income is subject to a 20% tax rate in Thailand, but has already been taxed at 15% abroad, a double taxation agreement means the individual would only need to pay the 5% difference to Thailand.

Conversely, if the individual has already paid 30% tax in a foreign country, there would be no additional tax liability in Thailand, as the tax burden paid abroad is higher than the one required in Thailand.

Individuals cannot claim a refund for the tax difference between Thailand and a foreign country.

Thailand has 61 double taxation agreements with various countries.

Q: Can the income data of individuals in foreign countries be checked to assess taxes?

Thailand issued a royal decree last year on the exchange of information for tax purposes, aligning with international tax agreements.

The country must comply with obligations to exchange tax information upon request, according to agreements or conventions on the avoidance of double taxation and the prevention of tax evasion, as well as the Multilateral Convention on Mutual Administrative Assistance in Tax Matters.

Thailand must also comply with obligations to automatically exchange financial account information under the Multilateral Competent Authority Agreement on Automatic Exchange of Financial Account Information.

As a member of the Global Forum on Transparency and Exchange of Information for Tax Purposes, which is a cooperation framework of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development on tax information exchange, Thailand is required to conduct both on-request and automatic exchanges of tax information with its treaty partners.

However, the laws on the exchange of financial information for tax purposes, which are made available in 113 countries, have certain limitations.

The information received from financial institutions and securities companies pertains specifically to investment-related matters, such as interest and dividends, and does not encompass all the financial information of the individual.

Therefore, some financial information, such as salaries or wages, will not be provided under these reciprocal information exchange agreements.

https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/ge ... come-rules
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Re: Taxes … more fuel to the fire!!

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Gaybutton wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2024 5:56 pm The most significant to expats part of the article says "If the individual's resident country follows the worldwide income rule, the individual still has to pay taxes to Thailand, resulting in double taxation, unless the foreign country has a double taxation agreement with Thailand."

For most of us expats, our countries do have this agreement. Folks, is that enough reassurance yet?
First question: How would you define double taxation ?

My understanding is double taxation would be paying the full rate of tax in both countries.
For example: If your home country charged 20% tax AND Thailand charged 30% tax, that would be 50%, which would be double taxation.
This is what should be prevented by the treaty.

I don't believe it prevents you from being charged 20% in your own country and 10% in Thailand. As a general principle. Of course, there may be clauses that protect certain types of income, as already discussed.

Of course, I might misunderstand it, but my perception is based on having some past dealings with double taxation.
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Re: Taxes … more fuel to the fire!!

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Jun wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2024 6:08 pm First question: How would you define double taxation ?
Very simple. I define it as if your source of income is solely pensions and Social security, and you are income taxed in your home country, then you are exempt from any income tax in Thailand.

I have not read the tax agreement between Thailand and the UK, but if you want to read it, see: https://www.gaybuttonthai.com/viewtopic ... 71#p113671

In that same article I show where it clearly states that USA citizens living on pensions and Social Security are completely exempt from having to pay income tax in Thailand.

If you spot anything in the UK agreement that may mean UK citizens will have to pay income tax in Thailand as well as in the UK, please post so that UK readers will know what to expect.
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Re: Taxes … more fuel to the fire!!

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Gaybutton wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2024 6:19 pm Very simple. I define it as if your source of income is solely pensions and Social security, and you are income taxed in your home country, then you are exempt from any income tax in Thailand.

I have not read the tax agreement between Thailand and the UK, but if you want to read it, see: https://www.gaybuttonthai.com/viewtopic ... 71#p113671

In that same article I show where it clearly states that USA citizens living on pensions and Social Security are completely exempt from having to pay income tax in Thailand.

If you spot anything in the UK agreement that may mean UK citizens will have to pay income tax in Thailand as well as in the UK, please post so that UK readers will know what to expect.
You have chosen to define Double Taxation for just one specific type of income, which may match your own circumstances.

Nothing wrong with that, but I bet that many board members have a more diverse range of income sources that do not benefit from the specific exemption.

For example, in my experience as a UK resident receiving dividend income from overseas, I had to calculate UK tax on those overseas dividends, with a deduction for tax already paid overseas.

Thailand would probably be entitled to make it just the same, whilst fully complying with treaties.

Also, in the double tax treaty we looked at earlier, from what I recall, government pensions were one of the few sources of income that were defined as not taxable in Thailand. Perhaps civil servants who drafted the treaty looked after their own interests. They didn't include an exemption for private pension income.
If ALL forms of overseas income were exempt from taxation in Thailand, there would be no need for an exemption for government pensions.
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Re: Taxes … more fuel to the fire!!

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Jun wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2024 7:04 pm Also, in the double tax treaty we looked at earlier, from what I recall, government pensions were one of the few sources of income that were defined as not taxable in Thailand.
And you think Thai tax people are going to research every expat's pension to make sure it is a government pension? I'll be waiting for the debate about what even constitutes a government pension. There are all kinds of governments within countries. In the USA it could be federal government, state government, county government, city government, etc.

I can't even imagine them bothering with all that. Also, whether they are even going to try to tax expats at all is under discussion. No decisions have been made and I think most of this, if not all of this, is going to just fade into oblivion.

If they need our money that badly, it would be much simpler to just raise the price of visas than try to force taxes down our throats. No one in Thai government has talked about doing anything like that.

What they should be doing is coming up with ways to attract more expats, not coming up with ways that will influence new expats to go elsewhere while at the same time driving out a significant number of expats already living in Thailand. I think trying to tax us would backfire on them and instead of gaining a lot of money as a result, instead they will be losing a lot of money, along with losing potential money.

The only tax change I see coming is closing the loophole about when money is brought in. I think that's their goal. that's what they're going to do, and nothing else - if they even do that. I'm also waiting to see how they would enforce it.

Bottom line - I believe expats are not going to pay so much as a single baht of income tax to Thailand. I believe once they really think it through - if they ever do - they'll realize it's a Pandora's box that is not worth opening.
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