Taxes … more fuel to the fire!!

[Dodger]

Let's see..

In order for the Thai Revenue Dept (TRD) to begin collecting taxes from "Resident" retired foreigners they would have to rely on accurate Immigration data to manage this process. Maybe the three thousand visa agents who "sell" visas with or without the required compliance documents can help them with this process...

I guess this would come sometime after TRD revenues (and actually understands) 61 complex international double-tax agreements to determine who gets taxed and who doesn't...

I'm running out of

[Dodger]

Let's see..

In order for the Thai Revenue Dept (TRD) to attempt to collect taxes from "Resident" retired foreigners pensions they would first have to rely on accurate Immigration data to manage this process. Maybe the three thousand visa agents who "sell" visas with or without the required compliance documents can help them with this process...

I guess this would come sometime after TRD revenues (and actually understands) 61 complex international double-tax agreements to determine who gets taxed and who doesn't...

This reminds me of the bold announcement last year that every Thai citizen over the age of 18 would receive 1,000 baht as an incentive from the government to help stimulate the economy. Here it is 2024 and they still don't have the foggiest clue where to get the money...

"READY - FIRE - AIM" as always.

I'm running out of hahahahahahahahahaha's

[Gaybutton]

count your total number of days in that country. Without any requirement for continuous days.

Oh well - nice try.

I still think few, if any, of us are going to have to worry. I'm also starting to think the idea of trying to tax expat retirees living on their pensions and Social Security is another one of those genius ideas that has a good chance of just fizzling out and disappearing - along with so many other of their great ideas . . .

[Gaybutton]

I see nothing new here. It seems to me some people need constant reassurance that they won't be taxed. Meanwhile I still see no reason to think expats on the retirement visa living on pensions and Social Security are going to be income taxed. And still not a word about it from the Thai government.
________________________________________________________

“Don’t panic!” experienced tax adviser tells expat club in Pattaya

By Barry Kenyon

June 12, 2024

About 100 members of the Pattaya City Expat Club turned up to hear Thomas Carten on the complex changes to income tax rules recently announced by the Thai Revenue (TR) authorities. Mr Carten, who conducts business in Thailand as American International Tax Advisors, emphasized that the Thai government’s principal aim was to start taxing very rich individuals, mostly Thais, who had enjoyed virtual tax-free status in the past from their huge cash assets held abroad.

He began by explaining what has already been agreed and what has not. Tax residents – Thais and foreigners spending at least 183 days in the country in 2024 – are expected to fill in tax forms not later than the end of March 2025 to cover “assessable” income transmitted to Thailand in the current calendar year. He said that TR did not require further authorization from the government and accepted there were many ambiguities as regards the position of retirees living on already taxed income.

Mr Carten pointed out that detailed advice from TR had been very thin on the ground. It was always open for TR to backtrack, for example by exempting those foreigners on one year visa extensions such as retirement or marriage: there is a woefully insufficient number of tax officers at TR to process the forms of 200,000-plus foreign tax residents. An audience member pointed out that the long-threatened tourist entry tax had suddenly and unexpectedly been withdrawn by the prime minister. However, there was absolutely no guarantee he would do likewise on remitted income from overseas in 2024.

The guest speaker then moved on to the Revenue’s suggestion that, from January 2025, tax residents’ worldwide income, whether remitted to Thailand or not, would be taxable. However, this plan needed the approval of Thailand’s parliament which had not yet even begun to consider the notion. Answering a series of member’s questions Mr Carten said 61 double-taxation treaties would be important in the hypothetical scenario – although the detail varied one agreement from another. Many issues would need to be addressed, for example whether income deemed to be tax-free in the home country would be considered tax-free here. The example given was UK premium bonds whose winnings are specifically exempt from taxation under UK law.

Mr Carten said that, even if world-wide income was included in a future Thai tax reform, there remained many tax-efficient escape routes. One was to invest funds in an international pension plan such as the Hong Kong based Soteria Worldwide Retirement Plan which is extremely tax friendly for investors wanting to send cash to Thailand. However, the transfer of assets to Hong Kong would need to be done before any relevant Thai law was formally passed to get the full tax advantages. Representatives of Business Class Asia, contact for the Hong Kong retirement plan, were present at the meeting. Mr Carten’s basic message in his address was to keep calm in an admittedly volatile situation. “Talk of fleeing the country is certainly premature,” he concluded.

https://www.pattayamail.com/latestnews/ ... aya-463018

[2lz2p]

Barry's article pretty much sums up Thomas Carden's talk at yesterday's PCEC meeting.

[Jun]

Mr Carten said that, even if world-wide income was included in a future Thai tax reform, there remained many tax-efficient escape routes. One was to invest funds in an international pension plan such as the Hong Kong based Soteria Worldwide Retirement Plan which is extremely tax friendly for investors wanting to send cash to Thailand. However, the transfer of assets to Hong Kong would need to be done before any relevant Thai law was formally passed to get the full tax advantages. Representatives of Business Class Asia, contact for the Hong Kong retirement plan, were present at the meeting. Mr Carten’s basic message in his address was to keep calm in an admittedly volatile situation. “Talk of fleeing the country is certainly premature,” he concluded.

If taxation is increased, looking for loopholes swiftly follows.

However:
1 I'm not sure why Hong Kong private pensions are so advantageous. Presumably there is something special in the Hong Kong-Thailand double tax treaty, but I'm not interested enough to read it.

2 There's huge geopolitical risk attached to investing in China. It takes just one war & your investments lose 95~100% of their value.

3 I smell a rat when the people selling the pension plan were present at the meeting where it was proposed.

[Gaybutton]

I smell a rat when the people selling the pension plan were present at the meeting where it was proposed.

I've never heard of this pension plan. I certainly would never entrust my money to an entity I know absolutely nothing about.

I see no point in taking any kind of steps at all for now. I keep repeating - we have heard nothing from the Thai government at all. We don't know if they are even going to try to tax us. Mr. Carten said "“Talk of fleeing the country is certainly premature.” I think doing anything is premature until and unless the Thai government clearly states whether they are going to try to tax us or not.

Don't be surprised if we never hear anything about it from the Thai government.

[whitedesire]

My understanding of this, is that tax will be paid on income brought into Thailand from all years, before it was just the year it was earned, this info is coming from accountants like PwC etc. Not such a drastic change really. My understanding is that tax is not paid on monies held outside of Thailand, this could be a problem especially if you have retired in Thailand and bring or brought all your monies into the country. Mind you double taxation treaties are in place, certainly with the uk that you don't pay tax twice, however, certainly in the UK, if you become non resident, you don't pay tax anyway in the UK, but may pay tax in your residing country.

As an example, here in Malaysia, the law states that pensions and annuities are tax free for foreign retirees, therefore, if you are non resident of the UK then no tax is paid in the UK either.

[Dodger]

Don't be surprised if we never hear anything about it from the Thai government.

This is exactly what every single expat I've talked to is saying about this.

In order to even attempt to impose taxes on retirees pensions they would first have to read and comprehend numerous complex international financial Agreements and Treaties, none of which would be easy to fully understand even for the countries that wrote them, and then would have the task of training underpaid State pencil-pushers at the Revenue Dept on how to comprehend and enforce them... Sorry, I don't know what else to do than laugh.

I think an important thing to remember here is that if they take actions which contradict or violate these Agreements/Treaties it's not just the individual tax payer that they would have issue with - it would be the government of the country(s) who they signed the Agreements/Treaties with.

Conclusion: We will never see them attempt to double-tax our pensions (or social security) in our life times. Talk about it? Yes. Give the local papers something to write about? Yes. Blast the expat community with their Stun Gun like they do consistently at regular intervals? Yes. But actually do it? No.

[Gaybutton]

In case you haven't had enough about the tax brouhaha, here is an EDITORIAL from the Pattaya Mail. The article does not identify the author.

Once again, literally everything I read about it is penned by people who don't know any more about it than the rest of us. The author thinks the Thai authorities "don’t take any notice of what foreigners think." I disagree. There has been several times over the years where the government not only took notice of what foreigners think, but acted on it. Several immigration issues have been acted upon when foreigners complained. During the Covid crisis the Thai government decided to include foreigners as eligible for free vaccines, when some hospitals were going to charge foreigners 3000 baht on up for vaccines. I got one of the free vaccines at a hospital.

I see no reason to assume the Thai government will ignore tax treaties and ignore the fears of retirement visa expats. The government really does need to let us know, in very clear terms, just what is going to happen with this. I believe the only reason we haven't heard anything yet is simply because they themselves don't know yet.
___________________________________________

Foreigners are frantic about Thai income tax blurs

By Pattaya Mail

June 13, 2024

EDITORIAL

The Thai government expects its Revenue arm to collect 100 billion baht more to help fund the digital wallet give-away scheme. This surely explains why, from January 1 2024, assessable foreign income transmitted to Thailand by tax residents (Thais or foreigners here for six months plus in a calendar year) will be subject to personal income tax via Revenue tax forms. Those have to be completed no later than the end of March next year.

A recent informal survey of retirees in Pattaya suggested that over 90 percent were in a state of utter confusion. What is assessable income? Does it include pensions already taxed in the home country? What about sending your cash to your wife as a gift? How to make sense of double taxation treaties which are undecipherable to most folk? Will visa renewal be dependent on having a Thai tax identification number? What will it cost to hire accountants?

It’s no wonder that many expats are muttering, or talking openly, about leaving Thailand or at least making sure they are in the country for fewer than 183 days to escape the tax residence trap. Typical retirees here live on already-taxed pensions. Getting involved with a second tax authority, accountants and tax specialists is just about the last thing they want. Not to mention the potential costs of this bureaucracy. Nonsense on social media, such as the claim that Thai banks are now deducting tax international cash arrivals, is rampant.

There’s a well-known truism that Thai authorities don’t take any notice of what foreigners think. The issue here is whether those same authorities are prepared to see the expat market, especially for retirees and global citizens, collapse under the pile-up of unanswered questions. What about the future of the Elite visa? What about the thousands of farang men married to Thais and with families to support? What about the property market, especially the purchase of condominiums? How can the understaffed Revenue suddenly deal expeditiously with hundreds of thousands of forms and accompanying documentation in a foreign language?

Maybe, official clarification is just around the corner. Maybe. Meanwhile, accountancy firms are busy enrolling frightened expats with the promise of updates whenever possible. What would help, of course, is a statement from official Thai authorities that income already taxed elsewhere will not be re-taxed here. Or that certain types of visa, for example annual extensions for retirement or marriage, are exempt from the tax regulations on the grounds they are not “residence” permits. Sometimes silence is the best policy. But not tax reform on this scale.

https://www.pattayamail.com/latestnews/ ... urs-463107