UFOs

[Jomtienbob]

, and that Fox News is actually "fair and balanced), I'm a skeptic. I don't believe anything that doesn't have some basis in logic or that can be scientifically explained. "

Of course Fox news is fair and balanced. It has Republicans and Tea Partiers as well. Sometimes even Conservative Democrats.

[RichLB]

I think GB (and others) are making a basic error by leaping to a couple conclusions. But, before going into that, let me emphasize that I am merely convinced there are phenomena occurring which are real and which are being covered up. I don't claim to know what they are.

Now to the assumptions. The existence of UFOs does not necessarily correlate to alien visitation. Another possibility is that these phenomena may be us from some time in the future. According to recent TV shows on Discovery, we are not that far from being able to move through time/space. The limitation appears to be the need for outrageous amounts of power. Perhaps it's possible that some future generations have solved that and elected to return to this time for some unknown reason.

If, on the other hand, if they are of alien origin, it might be presumptuous of us to assume they have any interest in us beyond curiosity. Upon discovering an anthill, we certainly don't attempt communication and insist on being taken to the queen. If such a super advanced civilization were to exist somewhere out there, they just might not see any advantage or reason to engage in dialogue with us.

An even more fantastical possibility is that they are not travelers from afar or through time. Perhaps they have always been here and taken steps to remain hidden for centuries. It might be that their increased visitations are due to an assessment that we are becoming a danger to the planet and, therefore, to them.

In short, I believe UFOs exist, but make no claim what they are.

[Jomtienbob]

if they are of alien origin, it might be presumptuous of us to assume they have any interest in us beyond curiosity. Upon discovering an anthill, we certainly don't attempt communication and insist on being taken to the queen. If such a super advanced civilization were to exist somewhere out there, they just might not see any advantage or reason to engage in dialogue with us.

Rich, I think you are spot on.

Firstly, we are not the only intelligent beings on the planet. Whales and Elephants come to mind, as well as ants. Star Trek did a movie about some civilization destroying the planet because they could not find the humpback whale, and it was solved when Kirk did the unthinkable and breached the time continuum.

The answer to the question of what UFO's are is still unresolved. We have mapped more of the moon than we have of the ocean. As far as reference to UFO's, Columbus described a close encounter in the log of his first visit to the new world. Apparently the lights of the vehicle rose from the ocean. We have had Senators, astronauts, and an ex-president acknowledge their existence.

We live in a vast universe amongst many.

[Gaybutton]

I think GB (and others) are making a basic error by leaping to a couple conclusions.

I think you've got it backwards. My point is without knowing what these things actually are, then there is no conclusion to leap to. Nothing is concluded. On the other hand, assuming the only explanation must be aliens or people from the future or whatever - that's leaping to conclusions.

For all I know, aliens, alien spacecraft, and all of that really do exist and are here. Ten years ago if you told scientists that the universe is full of black holes and dark matter you would likely have been laughed at. Today, nobody's laughing anymore.

Firstly, we are not the only intelligent beings on the planet.

Be that as it may, I still base my thinking upon what we would do if it was us exploring other planets. If we encounter a planet with multiple forms of intelligent life, then we would be trying to communicate with all of them. I don't think we would limit ourselves to just one. It would take quite a bit to convince me that aliens wouldn't be doing just as we would do.

I saw the movie you're referring to. It was "Star Trek IV - The Voyage Home." Based on this conversation, the flaw in that movie was the aliens had sent a space probe apparently under the assumption that there were no other forms of intelligent life and no other civilizations except for the whales. I can't imagine that aliens with intelligence and technology on a level like that would make such an assumption and/or have no regard for other possibilities.
__________

Appropriately enough, this just came in:

No U.N. 'Alien Ambassador' as the Bets Roll In

It's been a strange few days for alien news. Not only do we have ex-military airmen coming forward about UFOs hovering over their missile silos, the United Nations apparently appointed an "alien ambassador" to become mankind's point of contact for extraterrestrials.

Even betting companies are putting odds on an imminent close encounter of the third kind.

Obviously, some media outlets decided to go all-out, claiming said U.N. ambassador is needed to ask why the aliens (riding in said UFOs) are fiddling with our nukes. It's the responsible thing to do, right?

There's just one catch. The Malaysian astrophysicist, Mazlan Othman, who -- according to the UK's press -- was about to become the U.N.'s spokesperson for Earth, has no clue about her unprecedented promotion.

See the full article at: http://news.discovery.com/space/no-un-a ... gn=rssnws1

[Bob]

I'm leaping to conclusions because I don't believe in something that has no proof? Geez, excuse me!

Talk about active/fertile imaginations! Rich warns me or others against leaping too much and then suggests that maybe those ufo aren't aliens at all but us humans revisiting from the future! What the heck are you smoking? (cause I think I want some! ).

It is certain, however, that humans throughout history have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they're capable of believing just about anything. That history in itself ought to encourage more support for the scientific method and less support for what one is able to conjure up solely using brain power.

[RichLB]

Gee, Bob, I think you've found that smoking pipe already. If you've read my posts you will discover I have reached no conclusion what these phenomena are. I only assert there is a phenomena and that it is being covered up. You claim there is no proof of the existence of these things. To me, that seems beyond mere denial. Reputable witnesses (thousands of them) have reported seeing them, radar has tracked them, and artifacts have been left behind. Your assertion that denying the phenomena exists seems more an exercise in the ostrich technique of inquiry to me than honest inquiry.

[RichLB]

Be that as it may, I still base my thinking upon what we would do if it was us exploring other planets. If we encounter a planet with multiple forms of intelligent life, then we would be trying to communicate with all of them.

GB, aren't you assuming these possible aliens would have similar motives as you? Besides that, we don't even do that on our own planet with other species who we know are capable of intelligent thinking. With rare exceptions, our scientific community has made little effort to communicate with whales, apes, wolves, etc. And, yes, I know that in recent years there have been some renegade researchers who have taught one or two apes to sign and an effort is made to translate whale songs, but as far as I know, we are not making any concerted effort to begin a dialogue with these species. Given that, why would any alien race - even if they had human motives.

[fountainhall]

This debate is rather like the one on the thread Do anyone of you go to Church or will go? If you believe in God/UFOs, it's next to darn impossible to change your mind - and vice versa. I have no idea about UFOs other than I think they probably exist. More than that I cannot say. There has been some information on the news recently about time travel, but this was regarding men being sent for long journeys into space and returning much younger than those they left behind. Even that concept my mind finds difficult to grasp. But given the extraordinary vastness of our still-expanding universe (another reality my mind cannot handle), I sincerely doubt that we are alone.

[Gaybutton]

GB, aren't you assuming these possible aliens would have similar motives as you?

Yes.

[Bob]

Gee, Bob, I think you've found that smoking pipe already. If you've read my posts you will discover I have reached no conclusion what these phenomena are. I only assert there is a phenomena and that it is being covered up. You claim there is no proof of the existence of these things. To me, that seems beyond mere denial. Reputable witnesses (thousands of them) have reported seeing them, radar has tracked them, and artifacts have been left behind. Your assertion that denying the phenomena exists seems more an exercise in the ostrich technique of inquiry to me than honest inquiry.

Come on, Rich, it was you (not me!) that suggested the possibility that the ufos are humans from our world revisiting us from the future. Why not just suggest they are the tooth fairy or Santa Claus [as such speculation would be based on as much evidence (none, of course) as you have to suggest it's our future selves.]

Sure there are unexplained phenomena reported fairly regularly and nobody is denying that at all. A fair percentage of those phenomena have been explained (turned out to be things we know and understand). And some have never been explained - which ought to give rise to a factual and scientific examination versus tossing baseless explanations into the wind. As we discussed before, maybe the explanations ought to follow the examination and not vice versa? That'd be the sensible thing to do or at least I would so think.

While I really don't want to prolong this voyage to the stars, what artifacts are there that you claim that "they" (or anyone) left behind?