Boris Johnson

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Captain Kirk
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Re: Boris Johnson

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Jun wrote: Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:20 pm
Captain Kirk wrote: Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:20 amSame old fake news Jun. 'Corbyn will turn the UK into Venezuela'.
Don't twist what I wrote (due to a lack of a real argument on your part ?). I said they openly admire the Venezuela regime.
...and have previously stated that he wants to turn the UK into another Venezuela. Real argument? What was the question? Was it not based on being allowed to vote from afar? I have no argument on that as It doesn't really affect me. Your own skewed view seemed to be that someone living abroad and not paying taxes should not be able to vote for Corbyn. So it's ok if he wants to vote for the abhorrent racist Johnson?
Jun

Re: Boris Johnson

Post by Jun »

Captain Kirk wrote: Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:52 am So it's ok if he wants to vote for the abhorrent racist Johnson?
As opposed to the abhorrent anti-semitic Corbyn ?
fountainhall

Re: Boris Johnson

Post by fountainhall »

Jun wrote: Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:14 pm 1. I suspect your Hong Kong friend should not be entitled to the healthcare if he is gone for more than 6 months.

2. Anyone who lives here temporarily from the EU or the commonwealth is immediately entitled to vote, even if they will not be around for more than a year. People who have no intention of ever working are entitled to vote.

3. If I worked in Hong Kong for many years, with a wonderful top income tax rate of 20%, I would expect to have built up my own nest egg to cover retirement & wouldn't expect any UK social security entitlement to be accrued during that time
1. You are 100% correct. In fact he left the UK in 1980 and has had free Health Service treatment since then! Why?

2. Precisely. But you have several times stated that people like me, a UK born citizen with full residency and other rights, who happen to have lived overseas after a short period of working in the UK, should NOT have the right to vote. How to you square that with what you correctly write above. Why am I stripped of a vote and the right to use the National Health Service even after paying 40 years of NI contributions in full - rights deliberately taken away from me - when many hundreds of thousands - maybe more - have paid a tiny fraction of my NI contributions (if any at all) and who have nothing to do with the UK apart from a choice to live there, enjoy those rights? What therefore is the point of my being a citizen?

3. Respectfully, I have been making the argument based on general principals of right and wrong. Where I lived and how much I happened to earn is immaterial in the discussion.
Jun

Re: Boris Johnson

Post by Jun »

1 I guess he doesn't get free healthcare as the NHS lacks the organisational capability to enforce its own rules. Since UK citizens mostly do not benefit from free medical treatment abroad, then I wish we would reciprocate and ring fence resources so they can be allocated to UK citizens. The exception is where we have agreements with other nations over healthcare, but I believe these are usually to cover emergency treatment, not ongoing issues.

2 I didn't say I agreed with UK policy. Ideally we would insist EU and commonwealth citizens have to meet certain criteria to vote. For instance, I wouldn't let an overseas MSc student on a 1 year course vote, as they will most probably not be around for the 5 year duration of the government. Anyone who has been here for OVER 12 months might be more deserving of the vote.
Also, it pains me that people who have no intention of working & live at the taxpayers expense get the same voting rights as those who work and pay taxes for 40 years. However, I cannot think of a practical & fair alternative.

3 I was politely trying to make the point that anyone who leaves the UK at an early age, having paid little or no tax shouldn't expect a UK pension. And irrespective of what they expect, they are not getting one, as it needs 30 years NI contributions to get the full basic state pension (unless of course voluntary NI contributions have been paid).
If they went to a low tax country, they have had adequate opportunity to build up their own nest egg.

This is in no way intended to be critical of you & with hindsight, I should have been looking at similar career decisions to you. If I was in my 20s, I would be looking seriously to see if there are any good career opportunities in somewhere like Singapore. Or Hong Kong, prior to the current Beijing regime.

Had I "permanently" left the UK, I would have no problem in losing voting rights whilst abroad. The same applies if I permanently leave the UK in the future. Very likely if a marxist government were to increase taxes on my modest retirement fund.

I would also only expect a UK pension pro rata for UK taxes paid & would also expect to not pay UK taxes whilst abroad.
I do think it's a disgrace that the pension isn't inflation indexed for people living in many countries abroad.

Incidentally, the US is one of very few countries that subjects its citizens to US taxation even if living abroad. I don't like that system at all, since I believe people should be free to properly leave a country, providing another country is prepared to accept them. However, whilst that system is in place, I think it would be fair for all US citizens living abroad to have voting rights. I presume they have them.
I would also have no problem if UK citizens living abroad were to voluntarily subject themselves to UK taxation & retain full voting & healthcare rights in return.

Coming back to the topic, Boris Johnson has stated he prefers to leave the EU with a deal, but it needs to be an acceptable deal.
That means removing the backstop, which effectively prevents the UK from doing independent trade deals.

Parliament has undermined his negotiating position by blocking a no-deal Brexit. So thanks to that, the EU has no need to budge on anything.

In the last 12 months, MPs have had the opportunity to vote on many forms of Brexit, including the Teresa May deal and numerous ideas from politicians in all parties. They couldn't agree to approve any of them. Considering this, I think it's time the electorate had their say. Either in the form of a general election or a referendum. Any second referendum should have 3 choices on the paper, no deal, a withdrawal agreement & remain & if nothing gets 50% first time, either transfer votes or hold a third referendum with the least popular choice removed.

I would probably vote remain in any further referendum.
fountainhall

Re: Boris Johnson

Post by fountainhall »

Jun wrote: Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:33 pm I was politely trying to make the point that anyone who leaves the UK at an early age, having paid little or no tax shouldn't expect a UK pension.
I dont understand your reasoning. I was always told the state pension has nothing to do with tax paid on earnings.. State pensions are based on National Insurance contributions. Pay the full 40 years of contributions which, as in many of my years, can be voluntary, and you qualify for the basic pension. Or did something change in recent years?
fountainhall

Re: Boris Johnson

Post by fountainhall »

Seems Johson's admoinisitration has decided to go against the decisions of parliament!! This appears on the government website today -

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Captain Kirk
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Re: Boris Johnson

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fountainhall wrote: Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:41 pm Seems Johson's admoinisitration has decided to go against the decisions of parliament!!
Johnson seems to be indicating that he will not ask for an extension even if he is legally required to do so. With each passing day it appears ever clearer that we have our very own British version Trump installed as PM.
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Re: Boris Johnson

Post by Captain Kirk »

Jun wrote: Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:59 am
Captain Kirk wrote: Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:52 am So it's ok if he wants to vote for the abhorrent racist Johnson?
As opposed to the abhorrent anti-semitic Corbyn ?
I would have thought the argument should have been that someone living abroad and not paying taxes simply should have no voting rights rather than just no right to vote for someone you disagree with.
Jun

Re: Boris Johnson

Post by Jun »

Captain Kirk wrote: Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:51 pm I would have thought the argument should have been that someone living abroad and not paying taxes simply should have no voting rights rather than just no right to vote for someone you disagree with.
We agree on that. Voting for the marxists and not being around to pay their taxes is just an example.
Jun

Re: Boris Johnson

Post by Jun »

fountainhall wrote: Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:38 pm I dont understand your reasoning. I was always told the state pension has nothing to do with tax paid on earnings.. State pensions are based on National Insurance contributions. Pay the full 40 years of contributions which, as in many of my years, can be voluntary, and you qualify for the basic pension. Or did something change in recent years?
Firstly, National Insurance IS a tax paid on earnings. All the money goes into the same pot as taxes. None of it is invested to fund your pension, it's a tax and the money is spent almost as fast as they collect it. The only difference is this particular tax has a fancy name and is linked to your pension.

Governments are continually changing the rules on pensions. So much so, that even my statement earlier today isn't quite correct, as I forgot the last rule change.

People reaching retirement age before 5 April 2016 needed 30 years NI contributions to get the full pension. Those retiring afterwards need 35 years contributions. There may be further complications to this.

If you have paid NI contributions, there is a government website where you can check your entitlement. https://www.gov.uk/check-state-pension

As an early retiree (entirely self funded), I don't have 35 years NI contributions. If I could trust governments not to change the rules to my detriment, paying voluntary contributions would be an easy decision, as the return on investment would be very good. However, it is difficult to trust governments.

Under current rules, I believe the contributions can be made up to 6 years in arrears. So I can defer making voluntary contributions. Perhaps I will think about it in 5 years time.
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