It started with this quote from firecat69 -
Werner99 disagreed -firecat69 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:29 pm Sorry I don't agree. Four years of this Bum is not going to destroy what USA stands for. But 8 years could . I've never had rose colored glasses about my country. There have been many mistakes made but in the end we have been the most welcoming country to immigrants and have never used our military power to colonize or dominate
It is surely true that all countries have made mistakes throughout their histories, some greater than others. Before the establishment of the United Kingdom, England and Scotland were constantly at war with the English in particular being especially barbarous. Later, the Highland Clearances were a stain on England that many Scots still abhor. The Irish famine was a disaster. French and Belgian colonialism were often horrific, far worse that the British. Yet the British forcing the Chinese to accept payment for exports in opium was not merely self-serving, it condemned millions to death.werner99 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:01 pmI agree with your criticism of Trump, but your other comments are total nonsense.
--The United States practiced genocide against the Native Americans and stole their land.
--At least 25 percent of the American territory was stolen from Mexico through wars during the 19th Century.
--The United States took over Hawaii, which once was an independent country.
--The United States invaded and colonized the Philippines for about fifty years.
--The United States has used its military power to invade and to try to control dozens of countries, including Vietnam, Iraq, Panama, etc.
No nation is exempt. Spain and Portugal carved up the New World and massacred at least tens of millions seemingly with the blessing of the Roman Catholic Church.
Nations have also done immense good to others. Without the USA, Europe would probably be flying the Nazi flag. Without the USA and the Marshall Plan, Europe might still be getting over the physical effects of World War II. That was an act of extraordinary generosity that rebuilt Europe in a fraction of the time.
But the USA, like other countries, does need to face up to certain facts. Germany declared War on the USA and that was what got the country into the European war with Hitler. Before then, most of Congress and most of the country were determined to stay out of that war - apart from Roosevelt who pushed ahead with the Lend-Lease programme to help Britain and enabled Britain to keep fighting when many believed it could only be overcome as other European countries had.
The Marshall Plan was not merely an act of generosity. It was vital to US interests to halt the expansion of communism westwards. Without it, it is likely that the Soviets would have reached the shores of the Atlantic with little resistance. The US did colonise The Philippines. Yes, it left it with democracy, but it is one of the worst democracies because there just aren't the democratic institutions in place - witness the rise of the murdering, kleptomaniac dictator Ferdinand Marcos who was backed by the USA who needed its bases in the Philippines with Asia facing communism from the Soviets, the Chinese and - in their view - Vietnam. Witness, too, some of the other Presidents who have ended in jail. And that's before we look at the horrific rates of grinding poverty in that country.
US influence through the United Nations in Korea no doubt helped that peninsula from turning communist/nationalist. But it then installed another murdering dictator Syngman Rhee who was guilty of widespread corruption and political repression and where military rule continued until the early 1990s. I am presently finishing Max Hastings masterful history of the Vietnam War. Had Presidents Roosevelt and Truman of the anti-colonial USA acted on Ho Chi Minh's several requests to get rid of the French colonialists after World War II, that war would have been seen for what it was - a war to claim their nation and not a war against communism. The undeclared wars against Laos and Cambodia, the millions killed and the horrendous tonnage of bombs dropped will forever be a stain on US military history. Balancing that is the huge success of the US in rebuilding a devastated Japan.
Starting with Iran, the interference of the USA through the CIA has toppled endless elected governments thought to be against the interests of the USA. The effects of the ousting of the democratically elected Prime Minster Mossadegh in Iran in the early 1950s has come back to haunt the USA big time. The major assistance to Saddam Hussein during the Iran/Iraq war followed by the sudden change in tack when Hussein invaded Kuwait resulted in the Gulf War. The results of that major folly are still being felt with an horrific War in Syria, 6 million plus refugees, destabilisation in the region - and so on.
So I'm sorry firecat69, the USA is not the beacon of freedom and most welcoming country. Yes, it has accepted tens of millions of immigrants - but let's not forget it actually opened its doors because it wanted those immigrants and their labour to help build the country.
But I'll end as I started. No country is blameless in the annals of history. All have their good history and their bad history. I sometimes think that the unipolar system of international relations that has been in operation virtually since the end of World War II ought to be replaced by the multi-polar model of the 18th centre. Perhaps reasoned argument might help avoid future disasters. But then I recall the disasters and wars of that period of global history.
Who knows what might happen in the future? No-one. In the early 1990s, I remember reading a fascinating book by the noted American economist, Lester Thurow. "Head to Head: The Coming Economic Battle Among Japan, Europe and America" purported to give an economist's view on which economy would be the most prosperous in the early 21st century. After analysing factors in each, he put forward his reasons for saying that everything was in place for Europe to be the dominant economy. If the leaders in their field get things so wrong, how can we ordinary mortals be any more successful?
