Finding Mr. Right - If You're So Inclined

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Dodger
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Re: Finding Mr. Right - If You're So Inclined

Post by Dodger »

Like it or not, there’s a strong connection between Buddhism and your boy.

Regardless if it’s is a short time roll in the hay or long term relationship, there’s a 95% probability that the boy you’re with is Buddhist. Buddhists are very liberal when it comes to romantic relationships, although encourage “non attachment” by discarding all things in life which cause pain. This teaching isn’t directed towards worldly objects in a physical sense, but in a spiritual sense. In Buddhism, to achieve non attachment in a relationship a person has to detach from the idea that their partner is perfect, and accept his/hers partner for who they are unconditionally. Buddhist’s believe this is the key to a happy romantic relationship, with the understanding that the relationship itself is “impermanent” just like everything else in life. I think one of the reasons that endings seem to cause so many painful emotions is due to the false belief that anything should or could possibly be permanent.

One of the major drawbacks in a money-boy relationship is the tendency of the farang to treat his Thai partner as his possession which he has the right to control based on the very foundation of the relationship, i.e., companionship and sex in exchange for money. Even in western thinking, control and attempts to possess are indications of insecurity and negative emotions which can destroy any relationship. I think another reason these relationships commonly fail is because the Thai boy (or girl) is only selling you what you’re paying for, which does not include “Them”. It includes being there when expected and providing whatever sexual services you want, but has nothing to do with giving you “themselves” (spiritual selves).

I asked my ex-boyfriend once how he felt about with having sex with so many strangers when he was working on the scene. His answer, as profound as it was, was really very simple. He said he was only selling his body, not “himself”. Buddhist’s do not believe there is a separation between the material world and spiritual world, thus the reason for all the animism and ghost stories you hear about. As a result of this belief, they can act (materially) any way you want them to act, smile (materially) even when they’re sad, and dance naked to your delights with their bodies, even when they (spiritually) are a million miles away.

If a person wants to live alone during their retirement years, so be it. If he wants to enjoy life in Thailand as a Freestyle Butterfly, better yet. But, from what I’ve learned, mostly from a million mistakes I’ve made, embarking on a meaningful relationship requires at least a basic knowledge of Buddhism.

I read a paper on a similar topic once written by an America Scholar who believed there was a direct relationship between Buddhism and the fact that relationships between couples with large age gaps were so much more prevalent in Buddhist culture. The key points he emphasized centered on the fact that life is considered to be a continuous process in Buddhism, where the body dies before taking on a new body in the next life, and the soul (spiritual self) never dies. He went on to say that Buddhist’s don’t always place as much emphasis on person’s age, rather focus on the person’s spiritual self (karma) when considering a relationship. As the age of a person’s body in this lifetime has less importance than what they see inside the person which has been gained over many life times. I know, this sounds like philosophical digging, but I found it thought provoking to say the least.

I know for me, understanding a bit about Buddhism has helped, not just in learning about them, but also in understanding more about my own actions and aspirations.
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Undaunted
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Re: Finding Mr. Right - If You're So Inclined

Post by Undaunted »

Dodger wrote: Sun Jul 28, 2019 2:58 pm
Undaunted wrote: Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:28 pm
I can't help thinking this entire thread which you began is an attempt consiously or not to convince yourself of the viability of your current "relationship".
At least you're thinking!
Wow! After reading your Buddhist thing I may be forced to think again :!:
"In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king"
RichLB
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Re: Finding Mr. Right - If You're So Inclined

Post by RichLB »

Dodger wrote: Sun Jul 28, 2019 3:00 pm One of the major drawbacks in a money-boy relationship is the tendency of the farang to treat his Thai partner as his possession which he has the right to control based on the very foundation of the relationship, i.e., companionship and sex in exchange for money.
Dodger, your entire post is one of the best I've read on this site. I only quoted the above snippet because I wanted to emphasize it although the entire post is worthy of repeating.
werner99
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Re: Finding Mr. Right - If You're So Inclined

Post by werner99 »

RichLB wrote: Sun Jul 28, 2019 6:34 pm
Dodger, your entire post is one of the best I've read on this site.
Yes, indeed--a very interesting post.

Dodger, you write extremely well, and I do hope that you will consider putting parts of your book on this forum for all of us to read.
T-4-2

Re: Finding Mr. Right - If You're So Inclined

Post by T-4-2 »

Hi@all,

I came across this forum whilst I was searching for information about the TM-30 and ended up reading this very interesting thread. By reading it I thought I have to contribute to it especially with aspects hardly mentioned but aspects that should be considered looking at the issues described here.

I come to Thailand for many years and have a condo a in BKK since 2012. For the last few years I am here for 5+ months per year in a 2-3 month schedule. Last year I asked my current Thai partner whether he like to move in with me.

A lot of aspects described in this thread may certainly be true and valid. I would like to stress on three items which is money, language, Buddhism and culture.

Since I came to Thailand the 2nd or 3rd time which was about 8-9 years ago I felt attracted to asian guys and specifically the Thais. I just split up with my german partner after nearly 17 years monogamous relationship. After that I felt I do not want commitments at least for some time. So the first guy I met, was serving a hotel training on a Thai holiday island. I did fall for him a little bit and he was about 25 years younger then me at that time. Also I was the first guy he got private with. That was a totally new experience to me bcs . my previous partner that I split up with was my age. However we spent a nice time together for nearly 2 months before I had to go back to Germany and he back to Chiang Rai. In those 2 months I did learn that if you date a person around 20, doing his vocaional training, you will have to pay if you want to go out for dinners or so bcs. such person can simply not afford. Also I have to say this guy never asked me for any money or anything else. As he also felt for me so we stayed in contact for many years. But I always ruled out that he ever could be my partner. There were 2 reasons for it. First of all interlectually we were to far apart and second he was just to young and to unexperienced with everything. At the moment we hardly have any contact as he typically cannot deal with me and my Thai partner. I learnt in those years that Thai guys do have problems to stay in touch after ‚the story’ you had with them is over. Jealousy is part of that and a big part in the Thai society.

Talking about butterfly and continueing coming to Thailand I had bad times where met in one month about 15 guys and had sex with them all. Needless to say is that the risk you take increases if you do this. And of course I caught a syphilis and was lucky enough to not catch HIV. Call me stupid at that time but I tried me out as I never did in my life before which guys usually do around 20.....To everybody that comes here tob e a butterfly and want to fuck around or have moneyboys, be aware oft he rising STD infections......I suddenly came to some point where I decided to calm and settle down and started to seriously looking for someone who could be my (life) partner. My main focus was on someone being educated. And as supply there is big I came across someone in his early twenties just finished university. We were together for about 9-12 months and in that time I started to intensively learn about the thinking of Thai ppl, the culture, the way the buddhism is practiced in Thailand and how a Thais approach to love someone. This guy certainly did love me 100%. He was well educated, came from a good family, did not have a job at the time yet. He had a very clear understanding how a relationship has to be. Quite to much. For example when I was in Germany he insisted to have a skype call every night. He stayed awake for it actually which was sweet. But sometimes I came home after work and had obligations and no time to do that or was simply tired. He could hardly accept that. This one was the first nail in the coffin as he could not understand that sometimes I cannot. When one day I said to him, in a passing conversation, that I meet my ‚first guy I ever met in Thailand’ who was in BKK, for a tea in central world, (the one I was talking about before on the Thai holiday island) my bf said to me that I cannot do this or only when he is with me. I have told him my life story so he knew about that guy already. Jealousy. So we had a terrible discussion bcs. I could not tollerate his approach. I had to cancelt hat meeting. That was the second nail. Many more to followed so one day I decided to split up and it was a great pain especially for him. He broke all ties with me but I know from friends that he suffered nearly for a year. In his way he really did love me.

All those ‚encounters’ in my life thaught me lessons every time and I did learn an comprehended more and more obout the society and the way the ppl think in Thailand. I decide to re-adjust myself and it got clear to me that the next guy I would look for not only need to be educated, he also needs to have some kind of a job or business and be at least 30 years old.

Over all this years I realised that money is an important factor in Thai society simply bcs. only few ppl. have it and world of advertising works so well that evrybody thinks that they must have this and must have that...easy with free credit for 10-12 months....but after that....however this is another issue....but it also prooves another issue...Thais not so good in thinking about their future. They are indoctrinated like this throughout their life. The Buddhism does its part and I drew the conculsion that Thai Buddhism is not buddhism as I know it. It starts with the Dharma which in Thailand is suppressive but for those of you that understand Buddhism, Dharma actually is not. I think that is one reason why most Thai ppl are what I would call devout. You find this everywhere in different ‚strength’. Leading to a lack of self-respect.

I was also asking myself why in Thailand you find a reasonable amount of relationships straight and gay with age gaps 20+ years. It is related to money and to the Dharma as well as the seniority principal is adding on. I have not being treated with a lot of disrespect in Thailand all over these years.

First of all I assume the most influence comes from the Dharma teaching here and it results in ppl having low self esteem. That does have a big impact on social interaction and respectivly any relationship. For example: I have never seen a society where mostly everybody uses makes-up before leaving his home. For me that tells a story. In western countries you find that with women of course but not a lot with men.

The aspects I did write about here are part of the culture. A culture that is so very different to the western culture. And I mean so very different.

So in all those years I did learn that if you want a relationship with a Thai it needs some understanding of that culture. When it comes to money the approach would be, that if you have more why can you not pay for things. Thais usually live in their world, their world is Thailand. They get told that we farang all are rich. An average Thai cannot understand that cost of living and especially housing in western countries eats up most of those high salaries of the average westerner same as their salaries get eaten up here. Thais can only see that we have a much higher salary but do not see that the higher standard of living does not come for free. How can they, they watch television but mostly not have first hand experience. Traveling for most is not possible. As an example, a Thai friend of mine who is currently traveling Germany just texted me yesterday that he spent 10 Euros on bottled water that day and asked me whether tab water is good here.

So soon 3 years ago I met my current (Thai) partner through Jack’d. I was clear to give a bit of time to any relationship here and I was clear to not sponsor that person. However one thing everybody needs to understand is that there certainly is a wealth gap. To fill a wealth gap does not mean you sponsor a person! After some time when we were together we agreed that when we go out for dinner like up to 800 Bath for both he pays and if above I pay. I sometimes like to go to a nice restaurant like Eatme or some of the lunches in Shangrila or W. So I am happy to pay for us but we control it and look out for deals like 2 pay 1 etc. To do it this way just equals the wealth gap and nobody feels being taken advantage of. He hated his job and is about to quit it and I am not happy but I do not interfere as I can see since he did quit, he feels so much better and so much more active with things and mentally he is better to. For this you may have to know that he is somehow an artist. This enhances life but sometime it is difficult bcs. artists think in a differnt way. It took me time to get used to.

As a person he does not give a dingdong about Buddhism but having said that he is still brought up in that environment as I did explain before. And this environment is the culture. So in way he is so No-Thai and in another way he is so Thai. He studied abroad so has some wider vision of things. The first 2 years of our relationship we had many and regular difficulties which were mostly cultural. But we did manage to understand each other better and better. We do share the running cost on my condo but I also consider it ‚our’ condo and home. We had also problems to solve or lets say problems that I had in Thailand and when he realised he offered immediate help and did help. That was one of those very important things that happend to proove we are there for both each other. My man from my point of view is certainly not easy but I am not easy also. We are all individuals. And in the first 2 years of our relationship we did have that problem that he had difficulties to let go bcs. he was so upset about his prevoius relationship where he said he put in all of his emotion and that he could not do that tot hat point again being afraid of another disappointment. Everybody may imagine how difficult that situation is. We actually seem to have been past that stage with a lot of effort. But after all these years there is still this thing that Thais do not make mistakes ☺ and all farang here do know this thing. We will get over i tone day hopefully. He has been to Germany twice already and we just plan the next trip. Also we have loosly discussed about a possible marriage.

From reading all comments here I felt I had to tell some of my story. I do understand all the stories I read here but a lot are lacking of the propper view oft he Thai side. I do understand that it takes so much effort to get near to understanding. I do not claim for myself that I did fully understand but I learn on every occasion and I am happy about it that I can still learn ☺.

Before I finish snapshots of my story I also would like to mention that there is quite some reasonable guys out there with good education, good intentions and good jobs that really struggle to find a nice and ‚good’ farang. I have a friend who is in the early thirties, and he is well educated, he earns good money, he likes farang, he is able and ready to learn about cultural differences, just travels Germany to get a better understanding how things are in the west. Believe it or not, he cannot find any reasonable guy in BKK for a longer time now and he does not even have a role model and is fine with someone 40-50. Why do I tell you this here? I just want to tell you that there is reasonable ppl out there if you are reasonable and that even Thai also made very bad experience with farang, like the farang did with Thai.

The reason for my posting here, was to balance things a little more. That does not mean I not agree with a lot of the overall average Thai behavior that was described in the postings before. But you always find ppl that are different and you will always get what you are looking for! I not look at my partner as 'my boy'. For me that sounds disrespectful and non-function is inherent.....

If there is guys here living in BKK who like sharing more or making friends we maybe happy to meet up.

English is not my native language so I excuse for possible mistakes.
TomUK
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Re: Finding Mr. Right - If You're So Inclined

Post by TomUK »

Hi T-4-2

Welcome to the forum and thank you for sharing your interesting story with us. I really enjoy reading the contributions in this thread. They have given me a lot of food for thought. I only find them sometimes too one-sided when they only tell the story from the poor farang's perspective who got shafted by his Thai boyfriend. It is nice to also learn about the Thai side of the coin. After all, it takes two to tango. Thank you for trying to redress the balance a bit.

There is no need to apologize for your English. I have seen far worse from native speakers. I only noticed that you make some typical German mistakes. Should you be interested in improving your English I could highly recommend https://www.usingenglish.com/. It is free to join and there are many teachers of English who are native speakers and who will answer any questions you might have in respect of the English language. I consider the website an invaluable source of knowledge and use it quite often when I am not sure about something regarding grammar or the use of colloquialisms.
fountainhall

Re: Finding Mr. Right - If You're So Inclined

Post by fountainhall »

T-4-2 wrote: Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:17 am A lot of aspects described in this thread may certainly be true and valid. I would like to stress on three items which is money, language, Buddhism and culture.
May I also extend a warm welcome to T-4-2 to this forum. Over the last 13 or so years I have been contributing at various times to the three main Thai gay forums. In all those years, I cannot recall a more interesting and insightful first post. There was recently a thread on the future of the chat forums, given the fact that regular posters are getting no younger. Attracting such thoughtful new posters bodes well for the future in my view. Thank you T-4-2.

I sit somewhat in the middle of those who seem to make most of the contributions to threads dealing with relationships. Early in my career, I did not want any long term relationship and deliberately avoided them. With the type of work in which I was involved. I felt it was important to my young career to be able to move, initially within the UK but increasingly overseas. In that work, the opportunities overseas were greater and certainly better paid, although that was sometimes a bit of an illusion given much higher costs of living in some cities.

Then quite quickly I was offered a job in Hong Kong. It was only for two years with my Board having an option on a third year. As you may have read in other threads, I had no idea where Hong Kong was, had precious little idea about Chinese history and culture and even less about Asia in general. I did not know even one Asian! But it was a huge adventure for me and I grabbed the opportunity with a great deal of excitement. If there was one problem, it was that Hong Kong still retained the old anti-sodomy law which had been adopted in Britain in the 1860s and immediately found its way into the statue books of all its colonial territories. In those years, Hong Kong would throw a handful of gay men in jail for a couple of years - as if to discourage others. My contract had a clause stating that in the event of being convicted of any offence in a Court of Law, my contract would be terminated and all the end of contract benefits - which included a bonus in lieu of pension and a return air ticket - would be forfeited. So finding myself in jail for being gay was something I had to avoid.

But Hong Kong still had quite a vibrant gay culture under the surface. I soon discovered I was fascinated by young Chinese men and realised it was not difficult to meet, even without going to the couple of gay bars or the one mostly gay disco, all monitored by the police. (If you happen to have any interest in Hong Kong and gay life at that time, you might find this thread an interesting read –

https://gaybuttonthai.com/viewtopic.php ... nan#p91074)

Similar to many who discover Thailand for the first time, I fell in love too many times. But I was selfish. I could not afford for those relationships to continue too long. In several we just drifted amicably apart. In one case, I know I deeply hurt my Chinese friend and for a long time I was consumed by guilt.

But I had also discovered Manila – then the gay capital of Asia – and a Bangkok that was beginning its journey to being the continent’s gay capital. To a still relatively young man, the attractions of the go-go bars and clubs in both cities were a revelation to me. Hopping over to either city for the week-ends was inexpensive and I became a typical flying butterfly. On an early business trip to Tokyo I discovered how much I loved that city, Japanese culture and especially young Japanese guys. One soon became my first real lover in Asia and the first time I really wanted to live together with someone, despite the laws in Hong Kong. Weekly trips to Japan were out of the question, but I did make regular long weekend trips thanks to cheap tickets on Pan Am before it sold its Pacific routes to United. He also came for longer visits with me, sometimes several weeks at a time.

We talked about his coming to live full time in Hong Kong. As he was one quarter Filipino, this apparently was not going to be difficult. But then, as so often happens with long-distance relationships, during one of my absences he met up with a much older man(!) Not long after he told me he would leave me. At that time I just could not understand how anyone could consider a relationship with a man over twice his age!! It took me many months before I could get over that break-up. After another such relationship, this time with a lovely Hong Kong student, collapsed in the same way, I realised that maintaining a relationship with a considerably younger man was going to be extremely difficult with all my constant business travel.

After almost 11 years in Hong Kong, I lived in Tokyo for a couple of years, back in Hong Kong and then here in Bangkok. But once here, I was still working in Hong Kong and commuting back and forth for many years. So throughout my life I rarely enjoyed a relationship that lasted more than 5 years. Perhaps because I have spent most of my years in Hong Kong I have become much more familiar with Chinese culture. It’s not surprising to me that those longer relationships were with Chinese – and more recently with Taiwanese.

Here in Thailand I have had three very meaningful and fulfilling relationships. But even after visiting/living here for 40 years and knowing quite a bit about Thai culture and a little about Buddhism, I still find it difficult to understand what younger Thais think and why they act in certain ways in certain situations. I still find the little white lies which seem part of the culture annoying. And it’s not only younger Thais. I started doing business with a well-off Thai lady back in 1982. Since then I have done a lot of work for her and we frequently meet for coffees, lunches or even dinner with her family at their house. This is located near Soi Aree and so for many years I would be careful when walking along that soi on my way to V Club Massage or Chakran sauna hoping that she would not be passing by! But even after all this time and knowing her pretty well, I often fail to understand why she does things in a certain way or, having paid me as a consultant, then does the opposite of my recommendations!

I am not at all concerned about younger/much older relationships. I have seen these flourish in several Asian cultures. In these money, as many have written, is certainly important, not as a means of buying love but in accepting the major difference in earning power and wealth. The ability to communicate reasonably well is obviously key. I believe also that for the younger Asian partner there is some element of needing a father figure. In most cases, though, I genuinely believe that a younger Thai is looking for warm, caring and loving companionship. As many Thais and other Asians have told me, age is just a number! I wonder how many western gays feel the same way.

I wish you and your current boyfriend every happiness.
Dodger
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Re: Finding Mr. Right - If You're So Inclined

Post by Dodger »

T-4-2,

I enjoyed reading every word in your post and had no problem whatsoever understanding you.

Than you for contributing and Welcome on Board!

I agree with the fact that many Thais (boys and girls) lack self esteem, but not so sure this has to do with the dharma (Buddhist teachings). It's sometimes hard for Westerner's to imagine, let alone conceptualize, what it's like to live a life without "opportunity". A middle or upper class Thai who has a college degree and working a profession certainly wouldn't be lacking in self esteem, but for his cousin who's stuck working the rice gardens up in Isaan without enough money to pay the electric bill, it might be a different story. Esteem comes from pride in accomplishing something. If he doesn't have the opportunity to accomplish anything, it's understandable why he could have a low self esteem.

I really enjoyed your comments regarding past relationships, as well as the present. Life over here can be very simple, or a complex nightmare, all depending on the decisions we make.

Like you, I really took my time finding my current partner, and took even a longer time before making any real commitments. We've been together for 6-1/2 years now and things have worked out really well. Like most Thais, he started learning about Buddhist at age 7, received more advanced education on the Buddhist teachings throughout his school years, and went through the process of becoming a novice monk as most Thai boys do. He rarely if ever mentions the topic of Buddhism, although he does spot a ghost every so often. I just turn up the TV.
T-4-2

Re: Finding Mr. Right - If You're So Inclined

Post by T-4-2 »

Hi@all & thx for the warm welcome,

coming back to Buddhist Dharma and the self respect/esteem. I found a certain lack of self esteem through all classes. The upper class ppl. 'buy' it be lifting and plastic surgery. Thai ppl in general have a problem with aging. A wrinkle makes them crazy. All this is related to self esteem. I did talk to my partenr about it and he somehow cinfirms this to me. In my opinion Dharma the way it is teached in T has a role in it. It goes quite far but a full discussion about it cannot be done here for certain reason you all know.

Another thing that I want to point out to you here is the way you speak. Maybe it is subconciously but personally when I talk about my partner or loved one I woould not use the word 'boy' for him. Actually I find it a bit discriminating and disrespectful and it is certainly somehow degrading. I do not want to offend anybody but maybe you think about my words in that regard. As I say it probabaly is subconciously.
fountainhall

Re: Finding Mr. Right - If You're So Inclined

Post by fountainhall »

T-4-2 wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:34 am Maybe it is subconciously but personally when I talk about my partner or loved one I woould not use the word 'boy' for him. Actually I find it a bit discriminating and disrespectful and it is certainly somehow degrading. I do not want to offend anybody but maybe you think about my words in that regard. As I say it probabaly is subconciously.
I am also uncomfortable using the word 'boy' when referring to a boyfriend/partner. I agree it seems at least slightly condescending.

But then I have absolutely no concern whatever in using 'boyfriend'. Does anyone ever use 'manfriend'? On the surface there seems to be little difference between the two - boy or boyfriend, in the same way a straight hunk would refer to his girlfriend as his 'girl'. Personally I don't like it, but it is commonly used. The term 'my girl' is even in fairly common use in movies by much older men when referring to their wives of around their same age.

I suspect the use of 'boy' in Thailand has arisen because for decades male go-go bars have been referred as boy bars in the same way as straight bars are girl or girlie bars. That does not mean, though, that once a one-night off develops into the start of a relationship the same term should be used.
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