Major step toward same sex marriage in Thailand

[Gaybutton]

Thailand is one of the most, perhaps the most, LGBTQ tolerant countries in the world. I can't think of any other country that comes even close.

Now it looks like same sex marriage in Thailand will not only be legally recognized, but gay married couples will enjoy equal legal rights with heterosexual marriages, a serious possibility many did not expect.

We'll see how this all plays out.
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Marriage equality bill heads to House

PM a strong backer of bill, opposition Move Forward Party hails progress on rights

by Aekarach Sattaburuth and Wassana Nanuam

December 19, 2023

The cabinet on Tuesday agreed to forward a bill for marriage equality to the House of Representatives for deliberation as suggested by the government whips, said Prime Minister Srettha Thavisin.

Speaking after the weekly cabinet meeting, he said the government-sponsored bill, which has been examined by the Council of State, is expected to be tabled in parliament on Thursday.

The prime minister has been an enthusiastic backer of the draft legislation, which provides the same legal rights and protections to a same-sex marriage as a heterosexual marriage, as a step towards promoting equality and supporting families of all types.

Tunyawaj Kamolwongwat, a list-MP from the Move Forward Party (MFP), welcomed the cabinet’s decision.

He said LGBTQ+ people have been deprived of the legal rights and protections enjoyed in heterosexual marriage, and the marriage equality bill would bring about legal equality where the civil partnership bill could not.

Mr Tunyawaj also said two more versions of the marriage equality bill would be examined by parliament — one proposed by civil society groups and the other by Move Forward.

These are based on the same principle of recognising the legal union between two people regardless of their gender. The details may differ, the MP said, but they could be ironed out during the legislative review.

He said that if Thailand plans to host WorldPride, an international event to promote LGBTQ+ visibility, pushing for the passage of the marriage equality bill is a good start to demonstrate the country’s commitment to advocate for LGBTQ+ rights.

Four bills for civil unions for same-sex couples and marriage equality were debated in parliament last year but they failed to be passed before the House was dissolved, and they subsequently lapsed.

Move Forward has been pushing for the marriage equality bill, not the civil partnership bill proposed by the previous government, because it seeks to amend the law to allow anyone to wed and promote real marriage equality.

According to the main opposition party, the civil partnership bill recognises same-sex marriage but offers fewer rights and benefits to such unions.

https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/ge ... s-to-house

[Gaybutton]

Thai Cabinet Greenlights Urgent Consideration of Marriage Equality Bill in Parliament

By Kittisak Phalaharn

21 December, 2023

On December 19th, 2023, the cabinet meeting approved including the marriage equality bill on the agenda of the MP meeting by the government whips on December 21st as an urgent matter.

The same day at 5:00 PM, the marriage equality bill was presented to the council. However, the bill was expected to be considered after an inquiry thread was finished, according to Thai national media.

The Thai Prime Minister Srettha Thavisin publicly revealed that the marriage equality law would allow people of the same gender to marry according to the Civil and Commercial Code, with equal rights, responsibilities, and family status.

Srettha first congratulated and asserted that the Thai government would support other relevant laws to equalize rights and freedoms for everyone in Thai society regarding all genders.

https://tpnnational.com/2023/12/21/thai ... arliament/

[Dodger]

Jai and I plan to take advantage of the new gay marriage law as soon as it's passed for three primary reasons:

1) It will make the process of "transfer of inheritance" much simpler when one of us dies (that would be me...LOL), even though a Last Will is still necessary. 2) it will allow me to transition to a "Marriage Visa" which automatically reduces the financial requirements from 65,000 down to 40,000 THB/month income, (or from 800,000 THB down to 400,000 THB in the bank for those using that method). I don't have any concerns with meeting these requirements now, nor do I in the future, but any time they "reduce requirements" it's a good thing. and 3) Taking Jai back to the U.S. for visits as my legal spouse will be a lot less hassle.

Apparently a Marriage Visa is really nothing more than a Type O Visa with the marriage provision. Maintaining it on an annual basis is exactly the same with the exception that I will have to show a copy of the marriage certificate when doing my annual extensions.

No down-side...as long as we don't get divorced...LOL

[Gaybutton]

Taking Jai back to the U.S. for visits as my legal spouse will be a lot less hassle.

I'm not so sure about that one. The bottom line about Thais getting a visa to enter the USA rests primarily on two things, regardless of marriage or any other status.:

1. The applicant must prove he has enough money to do whatever it is he wants to do in the USA.
If you stuff his bank account with a lot of money, that can easily backfire if the embassy suspects that is how the money got into his bank account. In that case they will definitely reject his application. He has to be able to prove that whatever money he has is money he earned by himself. They won't even listen to anything you have to say about it. They won't talk to you at all. As far as the embassy is concerned, you have nothing to do with it. The onus is entirely upon him. That's just the way it is.

2. The applicant must be able to prove he has "compelling reason" to return to Thailand.
That is actually the more difficult part of the procedure. He has to prove, to the embassy's satisfaction, that he must return to Thailand. A few years ago I asked the embassy about that. The representative told me the main reason for it and the main reason why the embassy is very skeptical is because of the number of foreigners who manage to get a visa to visit the USA and then try to stay there rather than returning to their home country. He said the people who grant and reject visa applicants are looking more for reasons to reject, rather than approve, the application. That too is just the way it is.

Even if he gets the visa, that still is no guarantee that he will be allowed to enter the USA. Upon arrival both customs and immigration officials have the authority to reject the visa and send the person right back to where he came from if they have reason to do so. There is no appeals process.

That is the way it was when I made inquiries several years ago. My understanding is it is even more difficult now.

If you really want to take him on a trip to the USA I hope it works out, but you are looking at a major hassle trying to get a visa for him - and the odds unfortunately are much greater that no matter what you do, he will be denied rather then approved.

And if Trump gets reelected, you might as well forget even thinking about a trip to the USA for him.

[Gaybutton]

Equal Marriage bill drafts approved in first reading

by THE NATION

December 23, 2023

Drafts of a series of four bills that address issues of gender and propose marriage equality passed first reading in Parliament on Thursday, paving the way for Thailand to become the first country in ASEAN region to legalise same-sex marriage.

The four drafts garnered overwhelming support at the Thursday meeting of the House of Representatives with a vote of 360 in favour, only 10 votes opposed, and one abstention from the 371 lawmakers present.

The debate featured discussions on four bills related to same-sex marriage. These proposals were put forth by Cabinet, the opposition Move Forward and Democrat Parties, as well as civil society groups.

Among the more than 50 MPs who showed up for the debate component, Move Forward MP Thanyawat Kamolwongwat said that amending the law would afford same-sex couples the rights they deserved based on human rights principles.

With tears in his eyes, he said, “Today marks another historic day and is a triumph for the people.”

Meanwhile, Deputy Prime Minister Somsak Thepsuthin called on every parliamentarian to support the bills regardless of their political side. He said the one proposed by the cabinet reflects the government’s commitment to ensuring that all individuals have an equal right to form a family, irrespective of their gender.

Somsak also cited a government survey conducted between October 31 and November 14 which showed 96.6% of the polled public supported the bills.

However, the bills were strongly opposed by some MPs, predominantly Islamic politicians from the Prachachat Party, whose strongholds are primarily located in the Islamic communities of southern Thailand.

Prachachat Narathiwat MP Kamonsak Leewamoh said he adheres strictly to a religious principle that sees a strict divide between the male and female genders.

He suggested that the government consider excluding enforcement of the law in the three southern regions, where the majority of the population practices Islam.

After all bills had been passed, Prime Minister Srettha Tavisin posted to his X account. “We are finally on the road to bridging the gap to equal rights for all today! Congratulations to the LGBTQIA+ community for the Same-Sex Marriage Bill passing its first reading. May love finally triumph.“

What will happen next?

With all four bills having passed an initial stamp of approval, they will undergo second and third readings, as well as being comprehensively examined by an already formed 39-member committee. The government’s bill will serve as the framework for this deeper dive.

The committee members will also incorporate representatives from civil society, as one of the bills that passed first reading is from the nation’s public, according to House Meeting Regulation No. 122.

The bills will then need to undergo a three-reading process by Senators, as well as attain royal assent before being enacted.

If the equal marriage law makes it through this process, Thailand would become the first nation in ASEAN and the third jurisdiction in Asia, following Taiwan and Nepal, to recognise same-sex marriage.

How did we get here?

In June last year, three equal marriage drafts, proposed by the Move Forward and Democrat parties, and the previous Prayut Chan-o-cha cabinet were approved by the House of Representatives in the first reading.

Despite all three bills being examined by the committee during the process of second reading, the dissolution of the House by former PM Prayut effectively cancelled the bill as mandated by the Constitution.

Prayut’s proposed bill, known as the Civil Partnership Bill, faced criticism primarily from Move Forward and from human-rights activists for being weak on human rights. Activists argue that current laws leave LGBTQA+ people out of the rights, privileges and respect of society’s other members, including welfare rights. In particular, those who do not fit in long-time rigid gender categories suffer discrimination.

It is not yet clear just how far these bills will advance in the approval process. However, Move Forward MP Thanyawat remained optimistic, highlighting that “Thailand is on the verge of change” as he debated in support of his party’s bill.

https://www.nationthailand.com/thailand ... s/40034033

[Jun]

He suggested that the government consider excluding enforcement of the law in the three southern regions, where the majority of the population practices Islam

I don't understand the basis for his argument. Once the law is passed, nobody is compelled to marry someone of the same sex, or even get married at all.

Also, if he uses that argument "not in an Islamic area", well it would be no different to someone using a "not in a Buddhist area" to ban practicing of other religions. There would be outrage if that were tried, yet we're supposed to sit back and take it when religious types attempt to impose their views on other groups.

Thankfully in Europe, the christians are increasingly becoming an ignored minority and their leaders often know when to mind their own business. It's taken 2000 years.

Many countries are not so fortunate.

[Gaybutton]

I don't understand the basis for his argument.

My own neighborhood has a large Islamic population. They have a mosque, an Islamic school, even an Islamic ATM. But nobody is saying a neighborhood such as mine should also be excluded.

I think his basis is he anticipates violence toward same sex couples in those regions. He might be right about that, but I don't agree with him that excluding those areas is the thing to do.

It seems obvious to me now that same sex marriage is going to be passed and will happen. If they are trying to avoid problems in those particular regions they, in my opinion, need to find a different way to do it. If same sex couples living in those regions want to risk whatever consequences might happen, I believe that ought to be their own decision.

[2lz2p]

Jai and I plan to take advantage of the new gay marriage law as soon as it's passed for three primary reasons:

1) It will make the process of "transfer of inheritance" much simpler when one of us dies (that would be me...LOL), even though a Last Will is still necessary. 2) it will allow me to transition to a "Marriage Visa" which automatically reduces the financial requirements from 65,000 down to 40,000 THB/month income, (or from 800,000 THB down to 400,000 THB in the bank for those using that method). I don't have any concerns with meeting these requirements now, nor do I in the future, but any time they "reduce requirements" it's a good thing. and 3) Taking Jai back to the U.S. for visits as my legal spouse will be a lot less hassle.

Apparently a Marriage Visa is really nothing more than a Type O Visa with the marriage provision. Maintaining it on an annual basis is exactly the same with the exception that I will have to show a copy of the marriage certificate when doing my annual extensions.

No down-side...as long as we don't get divorced...LOL

I too was hoping the law would change for similar reason of inheritance issues - not the marriage extension (more on that follows). Further, it would IMO represent our commitment to each other (10 years of a LTR and 20 years of living in Thailand together after I retired). Being 26 years older than my Thai partner, I expected to leave this world before him. That didn't happen as he passed away due to illness 2 years ago last month.

As to the Immigration issues. Almost everyone (even Immigration) informally refers to having annual "retirement visas" and "marriage visas". However, they should be referring to what is formally (and legally) known as Extensions of Stay. In most cases one enters Thailand on a Non-Immigrant Visa (the letter following representing the purpose, e.g. "O" other, "B" Business, "OA" long-stay aka retirement, etc.) and received a 90 day "permission to stay" in Thailand. In the case of retirees, the category "O" Visa may have been obtained in Thailand after entering Visa Exempt or on a Tourist Visa, again receiving the 90 day "permission to stay". Prior to expiration of the 90 days, one would apply for an "extension of stay" of one year. In doing so, they show the "purpose" for the extension request, which can be retirement, marriage or related to a Thai, or other permitted purpose. Each with different requirements including financial.

Thus, as mentioned, to change the "purpose" from retirement to married to a Thai, does reduce the financial requirements for extending one's "permission to stay". But just showing a marriage license/document is not the only thing that is required to obtain an extension based on marriage.

All marriage extension requests must be approved by Immigration HQ in Bangkok. So when one applies (initial or renewal) and their paperwork/proof of meeting financial requirements are deemed correct, they receive a 30 day "under consideration" stamp while everything is sent to Bangkok Immigration for approval necessitating a return trip to actually get the one year extension stamp. Further, the applicant's Thai spouse is required to go with them to the Immigration office. Further, the documents submitted must include a hand drawn map to where they reside along with photos of them at their residence (usually with one showing them in front of the house and the house number displayed).

Then there is the home visit by Immigration (yes, they do visit even when doing annual renewals) where they want neighbors available to attest that the couple lives there on a continuing basis.

The Pattaya City Expats Club, this month, added a personal report by one of their members regarding the process at Chonburi (Pattaya) Immigration - visit https://pcec.club/Marriage-Extension-Expat-Report to read this first hand account.

As a result of the above "extra" procedures for obtaining a marriage extension vs a retirement extension, many that are married to a Thai change to or continue to use retirement as their purpose notwithstanding the higher financial requirement. Another consideration is that if your Thai spouse unexpectedly dies before you (accident, illness), you are required to report it to Immigration. They will cancel your permission to stay and give you 7 days to leave Thailand (if you still meet the financial requirements for retirement, you could during this period apply for another one year extension based on retirement - if using 800k in the bank, it would need to be there at least 2 months before applying or if 65k monthly income they may require proof of monthly transfers for the past 12 months.

GB has pointed out the problems you most likely will encounter for your 3rd reason of taking your Thai partner, even if legally married, to the USA. Not impossible, but still very difficult. I find it interesting that the USA will more easily provide a fiance visa to one's intended vs providing a visa if already married. In the case of the fiance visa, if I recall correctly, one has to get married in USA within 90 days and then there is some years living in USA to obtain a "Green card" - thus approving a visa where it is known the foreigner plans to live in the USA. It would seem that if already married, it wouldn't matter if the spouse as would be the case with a fiance plans to remain in the USA, but that appears to not be the case.

After saying all the above, your number 1 reason IMO is more than sufficient to tie the knot when it becomes legal.

[Jun]

Another consideration is that if your Thai spouse unexpectedly dies before you (accident, illness), you are required to report it to Immigration. They will cancel your permission to stay and give you 7 days to leave Thailand

Not very compassionate.

[Gaybutton]

After saying all the above, your number 1 reason IMO is more than sufficient to tie the knot when it becomes legal.

Seems to me it is hardly worth the hassle with all these requirements, not to mention if something happens to your Thai spouse, right in the middle of grief and funeral arrangements they tell you now you have to leave Thailand and you've got only 7 days to be gone - despite the fact that your home and all your belongings are in Thailand and you may not even have a place to go.

Of course the expectation is the farang will be first to die, but accidents do happen and so do illnesses. You never know.

Maybe if the same sex legislation passes some of that will change. I hope so. Thailand seems to really want to make same sex marriage legal and a reality. But what good is that if these rules remain the same and it's too much of a risk and hassle to actually go through with a marriage?

In any case, if I would want to go through with a same sex marriage, I'd be talking to a good Thai attorney first to make sure of all these requirements and what to do if something terrible does happen.

As for me, unless there are other reasons for marriage, I would probably choose to keep my relationship status quo and leave my money and assets to him in a will.

They say you can't take it with you. Bullshit! I'm taking mine with me . . .