Is Brexit foreshadowing the end of the UK's parliamentary system?

fountainhall
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Is Brexit foreshadowing the end of the UK's parliamentary system?

Post by fountainhall » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:30 pm

For as long as I can remember, power at Westminster has swayed between the two main parties - Conservatives and Labour. For a while, the Liberal Party tried to increase its ranks with little success. Then some Labour members of Parliament broke away, joined with the small rump of Liberals and a new Liberal Democratic Party was formed. That too made little progress. Is Brexit the vehicle that will finally break the system and help it change for the better?

The other day, eight Members of Parliament quit the Labour Party to sit in future as Independents. Today, three members of the Conservative Party have also broken ranks and will sit as independents. The most recent news is that a considerable number of both parties will soon be breaking ranks. Most are anti-Brexiteers. The Labour defectors are pissed off at the Party leader for not being more anti-Brexit and at his alleged anti-Semitism. The Conservative defectors are pissed off at the time it has taken to achieve precious little and Teresa May's disastrous leadership. Former Prime Minister Sir John Major has praised the courage of the breakaway MPs.

The problem for the Conservatives is that ever since the UK joined the EU in the early 1970s it has had a large core of Members whose only objective was to get the UK out. Teresa May now has a party more deeply divided than for decades, only partly as a result of her stupidity. To announce the date for Brexit two years ago and with the deal or no deal deadline just weeks away, she is no nearer a clear and acceptable Brexit plan than she was at the outset. So she shuttles weekly between a Party at Westminster that looks on the verge of some form of collapse, and Brussels where she hopes to obtain more concessions. Yet every time she appears on their doorstep the EU mandarins refuse to budge from their negotiated position.

In the meantime, the prospect of dire consequences for the economy with several major companies already having moved headquarters out of the UK and more poised to do so looms large on the horizon. Jobs will disappear. Those of us who depend on some sterling each year are likely to see the already depreciated currency (down around 17% since Brexit was announced) falling further. What an idiotic disaster!

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47306022

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Captain Kirk
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Re: Is Brexit foreshadowing the end of the UK's parliamentary system?

Post by Captain Kirk » Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:53 am

For "anti-Brexiteers" read Remoaners. Lost the argument, lost the vote and now want to usurp that democratic process by having a Mulligan. I honestly think they'll get it too. Win the re-vote and democracy in the UK is officially dead and buried.

As of the idiotic disaster....some of us do not vote with our hands on our wallets. Reasons for voting OUT are many and varied, counting the pennies is not always on the list. I didn't get the chance to vote last time but would have voted out. I care not about the economic argument, I care even less about immigration. If we do actually finish this process and get out, then Brexit will prove to be 100% successful from my standpoint.

fountainhall
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Re: Is Brexit foreshadowing the end of the UK's parliamentary system?

Post by fountainhall » Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:53 am

Captain Kirk wrote:For "anti-Brexiteers" read Remoaners. Lost the argument, lost the vote and now want to usurp that democratic process by having a Mulligan. I honestly think they'll get it too. Win the re-vote and democracy in the UK is officially dead and buried
Interesting that the US Election in 2016 was hacked by the Russians in seemingly a big way. We may soon know, but most now accept without that hacking Clinton would probably have won. The US government - apart from the President and his acolytes - accept the Russian intervention.

In Britain hardly any investigations have been done to the lying and the hacking that played a big part in the Brexit vote. What role did the Russians play? After all, one of their primary objectives is to destabilise and to a large extent get rid of the EU, at least in its present form. Is that democracy at work? Really? I certainly do not think so. Add to that all the lies spewed by each side AND the fact that many people did not really know what they were voting for! Both sides did their best to keep full details of the pros and cons from the electorate.

So democracy in the USA wants to get to the bottom of what may well be electoral fraud on a massive scale. Yet the UK soldiers on, knowing the vote was influenced by outside countries. And a revote will kill UK democracy? Hmmmm! Funny old argument IMHO.

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Re: Is Brexit foreshadowing the end of the UK's parliamentary system?

Post by Captain Kirk » Fri Feb 22, 2019 7:47 am

fountainhall wrote:Interesting that the US Election in 2016 was hacked by the Russians in seemingly a big way.
People are influenced from many areas in elections. Russian influence is very overplayed in my book. Let's spin it around a bit. If Putin lost an election and refused to leave office on the basis that there was evidence of Western interference what would we be saying? I'll guess we'd be outraged that he didn't respect the democratic process. The major powers will use the internet for their own ends for as long as it is there. Nobody will stop it, nobody can. Do we rerun every future election ad infinitum now.

PS
I'm fairly stupid - but I still knew exactly what was being voted on.

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Re: Is Brexit foreshadowing the end of the UK's parliamentary system?

Post by fountainhall » Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:16 pm

Captain Kirk wrote: I still knew exactly what was being voted on.
I’m sure you did. Equally had I had a vote, I would have voted to stay. I see no issue with holding opposite views.

But you cannot really be serious re your analogy with Putin. Putin holds all the power in Russia. He would never allow interference from a foreign power. The only influence he is after is from oligarchs made rich in recent years who will swing millions of votes his way.

Far more pertinent, I suggest, is the interference by the USA in elections in countries where it had and sought to maintain influence. The Philippines under Marcos, Indonesia under Suharto, Pakistan under some army dictator or other, Chile . . . In previous posts I have mentioned Iran. The USA and its ally, the UK, deliberately ousted the democratically elected leader of that country in favour of the dictator, The Shah. We know exactly what effect that interference had. Should it have taken place? Of course not! But the USA was the superpower and it played the world according to its own tune.

But Brexit is rather different. There is no doubt Cameron called the vote to eliminate once and for all the Eurosceptics in his party. He was a fool. He had no idea of the power of that opposition and the tactics it would use, helped both by individuals who had helped Trump in addition to the Russians. And it won. Then Teresa May called the election to strengthen her hand. And she lost her majority! Another fool!

But it is usually the case that when one government changes, the incoming government is in a position to undo what the previous government had done. Once Brexit takes effect - assuming after all this time May can still pull some sort of rabbit out of some sort of hat - that’s it. Finito. Das Ende. No going back. It’s not like the Scotland going it alone referendum. That could always be reversed in the future. Brexit is in effect more crucial than even a general election, especially for the younger generation, the majority of whom voted to stay. And lest we forget, we are talking about their future. Since we now know there was extensive interference, a second vote held under far stricter regulations is the only acceptable outcome.

I suggest you might consider reading Luke Harding’s “Collusion: Secret Meetings, Dirty Money, and how Russia Helped Donald Trump Win”. Although it has been in print for a year, most of what he writes about has now come out in Trump’s dirty washing. And some of these figures and methods feature in the Brexit story, It’s just like the USA interference in days of old that led to the Iranian Revolution, the Secret War in Laos, Vietnam, the secret bombing of Cambodia, East Timor, Pakistan/Bangladesh, Chile . . . Nowadays we need not lie down with our legs in the air to be raped by one superpower or another.

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Re: Is Brexit foreshadowing the end of the UK's parliamentary system?

Post by Captain Kirk » Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:28 pm

We could probably do this all day and night so I don't want to re-reply to some of the post but I'll just pick up on the Cameron one as we do look at things very differently. You say Cameron was a fool to call an election - because he ultimately lost it. For me that's not the point. It was clear that we as a nation were divided on whether we should stay in or leave. I call the decision honourable rather than foolish as we do live in a democratic country so if the majority of the country support the option to leave Europe then we absolutely deserve the right to have the chance to vote for that outcome.

To say it was foolish is to deny the majority in favour of the minority just because it's not what they wanted.

The younger generations voted to remain so when we all die off they can elect a party who will go back to Europe to request a rejoining. The votes of us oldies count every bit as much as theirs. You seem to indicate that they should have what they want as they have to live with the consequences. Had it been the other way around would you have said they should get what they want? More likely to say they don't have the experience to know what they are talking about.

Not really much difference to the Scottish vote. I lost that one but won't be voting leave if there's another referendum because I do believe in democracy and we lost - end of. 25 years on they can have one if they want but not before then. No do overs, no Mulligans.

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Re: Is Brexit foreshadowing the end of the UK's parliamentary system?

Post by Jun » Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:54 pm

I voted leave and in hindsight would have voted remain.

I still don't see why the UK tolerates making double the net financial contribution that France makes. In fact, I don't see why we should make ANY net contribution other than a modest sum for administration costs. Our politicians should have fixed this decades ago. They haven't, so that tipped the balance for me.

However, we seem incapable of getting organised to ensure favourable terms for departure.

Since the vote, we have replaced Mr Cameron with an inferior PM. The Marxist opposition gained a frightening amount of ground in the last election, with a leader who considers Venezuela to have a model regime.

As for the end of our parliamentary system, well whilst I am realistic enough not to believe that democracy is guaranteed, we also don't really have a culture of installing a junta every time the politicians screw up.

To be honest, if Corbyn got elected, a coup probably would be better.

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Re: Is Brexit foreshadowing the end of the UK's parliamentary system?

Post by fountainhall » Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:08 pm

I’ll just amplify a couple of points. It seems clear that Cameron initiated the referendum as part of the platform for the 2015 election because he knew his party was totally split on Europe. It always had been. He expected to win a large enough mandate not only to bring the party its first clear victory since the 1992 election, not only a commanding majority that would please all factions but also one that would give him the mandate to renegotiate with Brussels. He miscalculated. The concessions from Brussels were paltry to many of his colleagues, he totally failed to marshall his forces for a fight and he totally underestimated the referendum opposition until it was too late.

Instead of staying on to sort out the mess, he took the coward’s way out and resigned. No doubt he expected the faux Brexiteer Boris Johnson to take his place. Instead Johnson got cold feet and May unexpectedly landed the job. Like Cameron she wanted a clear mandate, stupidly called an election against the advice of many - and lost her party its majority. That surely indicates the start of the slow recognition on the part of some of the electorate that the referendum had gone wrong. She is an idiot because she said after the election result came in that she would oversee a clear Brexit policy. In that she has totally failed. Close to three years have passed and she is like a demented haddock floundering in the surf as she attenpts to keep her party together and the British people be damned, And the damage resulting from a no Brexit deal would probably last for years!

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Re: Is Brexit foreshadowing the end of the UK's parliamentary system?

Post by gera » Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:24 pm

IMHO the idea of Brexit was totally idiotic. The early hint was a support of it by Trump. By now it should become obvious for a vast majority of people in UK (with a small exception of those who consider Putin a honorable leader). Putin allegedly stole 200 billion Dollars from Russian Treasury and most probably will bring the world on the brink of extinction by the way of nuclear blackmail. In truth , he is nothing more than a thief and bandit.

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Re: Is Brexit foreshadowing the end of the UK's parliamentary system?

Post by Captain Kirk » Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:56 am

Whoever landed the job of negotiating Brexit was always on a no win scenario. Parliament has no majority for anything it seems with many still angling to scrap the whole thing. Brexit could have been relatively straight forward if the will was within Westminster to get it done but politicians being politicians they are all playing their own silly little games.

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