N Korea

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Captain Kirk
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#11 Re: N Korea

Postby Captain Kirk » Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:14 am

fountainhall wrote:
Gaybutton wrote:I would also like to see North and South Korean families able to be together again, North Koreans allowed to travel freely, people who escaped North Korea allowed to go home, if they choose, without fear of punishment, the starving people in North Korea having genuine access to food and decent living conditions, and North Korea closing their concentration camps and releasing the prisoners.

If any of that actually happens, I doubt it would be overnight, but it would be nice if North Korea starts taking steps in that direction.

Who knows? Maybe North Korea is finally on the verge of becoming part of the world. Maybe Kim Jong Un has at last come to his senses.

Keep dreaming! Funny how we were all talking about outright war only a few months ago and now there are fairy tales about how the North will suddenly become a wonderful fantasy land of milk and honey! It's just not going to happen! Kim may be more sane than we thought, but his ultimate objective is continuation of his rule. That means he keeps very strict control. Freedom to travel, closing concentration camps and freeing prisoners isn't going to happen in my view. The relaxation of sanctions and the willingness of South Korea to help the North will no doubt ease the desperate food shortages that have continued for at least two decades and living conditions may begin to improve. More than that will take decades rather than years.

Captain Kirk wrote:from there the NK people start to realise what they are missing and gradually rise up against the ruling wankers.

I doubt that will happen for a generation - at least. We know that the North's citizens have been brainwashed in a way few on our planet have. We know, too, that there are some defectors who have braved the long escape route through China, Vietnam and Bangkok before reaching Seoul who then found it impossible to forget the debt they owed to the Dear Leader or whatever his title. Despite the comforts of everything in South Korea and despite the fact that their families had probably ended up in concentration-style camps after their defection and they would have the same fate, these poor brainwashed souls gave up their freedoms and voluntarily returned to Kim's embrace. There may well be some individuals who try to instil the benefits of greater freedoms on their compatriots. But I cannot see they will have any effect in the shorter term.

'Tis why I said it will be a slow process. If the country opens up a little then at least that process can begin, even if within an underground movement. I just don't understand why their people allow this to continue. I don't believe they are all brainwashed at all. The grinding poverty which is part of daily life for most of them should be enough to make them aware of their situation.

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#12 Re: N Korea

Postby Gaybutton » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:04 am

Captain Kirk wrote:I just don't understand why their people allow this to continue.

I believe the reason is fear.

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#13 Re: N Korea

Postby fountainhall » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:23 am

Captain Kirk wrote:I just don't understand why their people allow this to continue. I don't believe they are all brainwashed at all. The grinding poverty which is part of daily life for most of them should be enough to make them aware of their situation.

There we have to agree to disagree. There have been enough reports from the North - from defectors and even a few journalists - and several documentaries which illustrate that the people of the North do not see their travails as grinding poverty. They see it as a sacrifice they happily make to ensure that Kim and his cohorts get their nukes to counter the threat of invasion of their country from America - and thus their death.

There was an interesting National Geographic television documentary shown some years ago about a visit to the North by a delegation led by a Nepalese surgeon and nurses to perform simple operations like cataract removal and enabling those who had been technically blind for many years, some for decades, to see again. Once the bandages were removed, the first thing one elderly woman did was shed tears and bow deeply in front of a photo of Kim's father to praise him for the miracle of "his" restoring her sight. That was then repeated by every single one of the patients. Not one thanked the surgeon or any of the nursing team!

This is a country where the people actually believe the fictions about their leaders that we in other countries laugh at. Kim's father did indeed complete a round of golf with five holes-in-one during his father's reign and then top that with a round including 11 holes-in-one when he became the Dear Leader! I do not believe you can brainwash an entire country in one generation. The brainwashing in the North is now into its third generation.

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#14 Re: N Korea

Postby fountainhall » Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:40 pm

I am completely gobsmacked! I watched in near disbelief at the activities from the DMZ this morning. Everything, absolutely everything was out of a playbook I never thought existed. Having experienced life in Seoul many times under martial law in the early-mid 1980s, having seen the North be responsible for blowing up a Korean Airlines flight and killing 115 in an effort to destabilise the 1988 Olympics, bombing a Rangoon Museum and killing four members of the South Korean Cabinet and two Aides, and goodness knows what else since. the optics and the resultant agreement from this morning were way beyond what I thought possible at this stage.

So the 1950s war will finally come to an end before 2018 is out. Spanners may eventually appear, but the start has resulted in a great deal more hope than most will have expected. I'll give Trump his due in helping create this climate of detente with his war talk. Yet I cannot help think of the South's President's moderating role as seen by his actions in enabling the North to take part in the Winter Olympics (bad mark to Pence who sat glumly throughout and made it all overly-political by inviting Fred Warmbier). Time will tell how this all plays out. I am now cautiously joining the optimists.

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#15 Re: N Korea

Postby Gaybutton » Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:50 pm

fountainhall wrote:So the 1950s war will finally come to an end

I'm sure we all hope so, and hope the peace will stay that way, but I can't help but be reminded of another time when most of the world believed lasting peace was established. Didn't quite work out that way. Keeping in mind that old cliché about history repeating itself, I certainly hope what we see happening now will not end badly later down the road.


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#16 Re: N Korea

Postby fountainhall » Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:42 pm

I can fully understand why Munich and Chamberlain is so often trotted out. But I think it's important to realise that this is in no way comparing like with like. One nation was then led by a pacifist who realised that his country was still massively in debt as a result of the First World War and with the costs of an Empire draining it of even more cash. Britain simply could not afford another armed conflict. Furthermore, at that time Chamberlain knew he could not count on an increasingly isolationist America. Germany on the other hand was known to have turned turtle under Hitler and was building a huge war machine. He had long stated his desire to extend the borders of Germany to other German-speaking territories. He had already gone part of the way with the annexation of Austria a full six months before Chamberlain made his fateful trip.

So in the present day context, the question has to be asked: who is Chamberlain and who is Hitler? I don't see the parallel.

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#17 Re: N Korea

Postby Gaybutton » Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:08 pm

fountainhall wrote:I don't see the parallel.

It has nothing to do with comparing Hitler and Chamberlain to the two Koreas. I don't think any of us are in need of a history lecture. "Trotting out" Chamberlain means don't take what is happening today as some sort of guarantee that everything will be just ginger peachy from now on.

Would it come as any surprise if while things are going fine now, when it starts involving Trump that's when everything will go wrong?

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#18 Re: N Korea

Postby fountainhall » Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:14 am

Fair point! As a metaphor for what could happen, I agree. And Trump could certainly put a very large spanner into the works. But on the basis of what we saw and heard yesterday, it was a complete surprise. All earlier summit meetings have been behind closed doors with the North giving carefully scripted summaries on its single tv channel. This was all done in front of the world including the North Koreans.

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#19 Re: N Korea

Postby Gaybutton » Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:10 pm

Which one do you think it will be?
____________________________

Mongolia, Singapore are final two sites under consideration for Trump-Kim Jong Un meeting

April 28, 2018

Mongolia and Singapore are the final two sites under consideration for the upcoming summit between President Trump and North Korean leader Kim Jong Un, two administrative sources told CBS News' Major Garrett. Mr. Trump told reporters Friday that the location had been narrowed down to two spots.

"I will be meeting with Kim Jong Un in the coming weeks, we look forward to that," Mr. Trump said in a news conference with German Chancellor Angela Merkel. "We're down to two countries as to a site, and we'll let you know what that site is."

Mr. Trump declined to say whether he has met with Kim directly. But he did say they have a "good working relationship.

"I don't want to comment on that but we have a very good working relationship," Mr. Trump said. "We're setting up a meeting. Things have changed very radically from a few months ago. You know the name calling and a lot of other things. We get a kick every once in a while out of the fact that I'll be watching people that failed so badly over the last 25 years explaining to me how to make a deal with North Korea, I get a big, big kick out of that."

The North Korean leader and South Korean President Moon Jae-in held a historic meeting Friday, with Kim becoming the first member of his family to cross the Demilitarized Zone (DMZ) since the Korean War armistice in 1953. The two Koreas agreed to get rid of their nuclear weapons, but they did not offer any details about how they will achieve this.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-kim- ... singapore/

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#20 Re: N Korea

Postby firecat69 » Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:36 pm

CBSNews wrote:The two Koreas agreed to get rid of their nuclear weapons, but they did not offer any details about how they will achieve this.

Facts matter. S Korea has had no Nuclear Weapons since 1993. They are protected by an umbrella of Nuclear weapons on Subs and B1 bombers belonging to the US and that umbrella will forever at least be within reach just as it is for many parts of the world.


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