JFK Assassination

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#1 JFK Assassination

Postby Gaybutton » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:33 pm

John F. Kennedy was assassinated November 22, 1963. It's hard to believe so much time has passed - 54 years - and I, probably along with everyone else old enough to remember, can tell you exactly where I was and what I was doing when I heard about the assassination. You can probably remember it as if it happened 5 minutes ago.

I was in school. The principal made the announcement over the school's PA system. We all sat there, dumbfounded, in a state of shock. We couldn't believe it. And the poor teacher - had no idea what to say. Then one of the students asked, "Are we at war?" A few minutes later school was dismissed. We all rushed home and were glued to the TV.

If you would like to tell us where you were and what you were doing, please feel free to post.

If Kennedy was alive today, he would be 100 years old.

Despite all the conspiracy theories and people who believe the assassin, Lee Harvey Oswald, did not act alone or that he didn't do it at all and was set up, I am among those who believe Oswald did do it and he acted alone.

What about you? What do you believe?

_____________________________

Then there is that long list of Lincoln-Kennedy coincidences:


Both presidents were elected to the House of Representatives in '46.
Both were losing candidates for their party's vice-presidential nomination in '56.
Both presidents were elected to the presidency in '60, after a series of debates with their opponent.
Both died after being shot in the head
Lincoln defeated incumbent Vice President John C. Breckinridge for the presidency in 1860; Kennedy defeated incumbent Vice President Richard M. Nixon for the presidency in 1960.
Both their predecessors were the last presidents to be born in their respective centuries.
Both their predecessors left office in their seventies and retired to Pennsylvania. James Buchanan, whom Lincoln succeeded, retired to Lancaster Township; Dwight D. Eisenhower, whom Kennedy succeeded, retired to Gettysburg. They both then died before the end of the decade.
Both their Vice Presidents and successors were Southern Democrats named Johnson (Andrew Johnson and Lyndon B. Johnson) who were born in '08.
Both presidents were concerned with issues affecting African Americans and made their views strongly known in '63. Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation in 1862, which took effect in 1863. In 1963, Kennedy presented his reports to Congress on issues related to the Civil Rights Movement, and in June of that year delivered his Civil Rights Address on radio and television in which he proposed the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
Both presidents, and their successors, conferred with a nationally known black leader about civil rights. Both Lincoln and Andrew Johnson conferred with Frederick Douglass. Both Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson conferred with Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr..
Both presidents were known for their wit and eloquence, and both frequently quoted Shakespeare and the Bible in their speeches.
Both presidents had been captains of ships in their private lives: Lincoln on a river boat, and Kennedy on PT-109.
Each president suffered from a genetic disease. Lincoln had Marfan's syndrome. Kennedy had Addison's disease.
Both presidents were shot in the head on a Friday seated beside their wives. Both Fridays preceded a major holiday observed within the week.
During the assassination, they were sitting in an alphabetical pattern. Their spouses first name and both president's last name. J,K,L,M- Jackie, Kennedy, Lincoln, Mary. Jackie was seated to the left of Kennedy and Mary to the right of Lincoln.
Both presidents were accompanied by another couple.
The male companion of the other couple was wounded by the assassin.
Both presidents fathered four children, and had a son die during his presidency.
Both presidents had only one child survive into the next century. That child served another president by political appointment.
Both presidents' wives died in their sixties after an untimely decline in health, during the administration of a president who had seen their husbands in Washington, D.C. the same year as the assassination (Mary Todd Lincoln died during the presidency of Chester A. Arthur. Arthur had attended President Lincoln's 1865 inauguration. Jacqueline Kennedy died during the presidency of Bill Clinton. Clinton met President Kennedy in 1963 during a Boys State summer program).
Lincoln was shot by John Wilkes Booth at Ford's Theatre; Kennedy was shot by Lee Harvey Oswald in a Lincoln automobile, made by Ford.
Both presidents' last names have 7 letters.
Both assassins' full names have 15 letters.
Each assassin committed his crime in the building where he was employed.
Both presidents were purportedly smiling immediately before the assassination began.
After shooting Lincoln, Booth ran from a theatre to a warehouse; after shooting Kennedy, Oswald ran from a warehouse to a theatre.
Both assassins died in the same month as their victim in a state adjacent to the state of their birth.
Both assassins were Southern white males born in the late '30s, who were in their mid-20s, and were 5'8" in height with hazel eyes and brown hair.
Both assassins were sympathetic to a government that opposed the United States, and both had once resided within that government's borders.
Both assassins were killed before being tried, by men who were reared in the North, changed their name as adults, and were bachelors.
Both assassins suffered injuries during escape.
Both assassins fled using modes of transportation they did not own. Booth rented a horse, Oswald rode a bus.
Both had body guards named William, William H. Crook told Lincoln not to go to the assassination point, William Greer drove JFK to the assassination point.
Both body guards named William died within 48 hours of being aged 75 years, 5 months.
Presidential security was heavily criticized, after each assassination, for being too lax.
Lincoln sat in box number 7 at Ford's Theater; Kennedy sat in car number 7 in the motorcade.
The doctors who primarily attended to each president were both named Charles. Dr. Charles Leale treated Lincoln. Dr. Charles Crenshaw treated Kennedy.
Each president died in a place with the initials "P.H." Lincoln died at the Petersen House and Kennedy died at Parkland Hospital.
Kennedy was the second president in U.S. history who issued interest-free money. The first was Lincoln, who issued greenbacks to finance the war between the states in the American Civil War.

Most of the items above are true, such as the year in which Lincoln and Kennedy were each elected President, but this is not so unusual given that Presidential elections are held only every four years. A few of the items are simply untrue; there is no record to show that Lincoln had a secretary named Kennedy; Lincoln's secretaries were John Hay and John G. Nicolay. However, Lincoln's bodyguard, William H. Crook did advise Lincoln not to go that night to Ford's Theatre.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln%E ... ban_legend

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#2 Re: JFK Assassination

Postby fountainhall » Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:03 am

I was about to leave home to meet a schoolfriend to go swimming that evening when I heard the news that he had been shot. I did not think much about it until I arrived at my friend’s home and learned he had died. We cancelled our trip to the pool and remained glued to the tv set. Like most people, that evening remains vividly etched on my memory. I don’t know why it felt as though hope for the world had been extinguished. After the austerity of Europe’s post war years, the nuclear tests in the atmosphere, the Cuban missile crisis, the Berlin Wall going up, Kennedy's speeches, especially the one at his Inauguration, had given us hope. With dour, sour-faced Johnson in charge of the free world, it was as though the lights had gone out all over Europe once again.

What do I believe happened? I have read a lot of the conspiracy theories. I no longer believe Oswald fired the shot that killed him. I do believe he tried to kill the President but I have long felt the official theory just does not stack up.

Why? Lots of reasons not worth listing here. But two have to my mind never been fully answered. First, if Oswald did indeed plan to kill Kennedy, why did he wait until the limousine was some distance beyond the Book Depository? When that limousine first turned right and came into his view, it was moving slowly. Oswald would have had an easy direct shot almost dead ahead of him. Even as the limousine made the left turn, Oswald still could have fired even though the angle was less favourable.

But for me the most compelling case against Oswald having fired the shot came in a programme aired on television about 4 years ago in which some former FBI staff and an Australian detective researched the assassination. It focused largely on the second and third bullets that actually hit Kennedy, the first having missed and hit the sidewalk in front of the limousine. A fragment might have hit Kennedy which would explain his putting his hand up to his neck. The second has resulted in the single bullet theory – that the first shot to hit Kennedy passed through his shoulder hitting at least two bones, exited then went through his right arm before hitting Governor Connelly. The third blew his skull into as many as 40 fragments.

The theory was that a bullet which passes through several bones in one body and then lodges in another body cannot be a bullet which shatters on impact. Equally, one which does shatter on impact would have blown apart Kennedy’s back with that second shot. That therefore presupposes two separate rifles with two different types of ammunition. It then looked into how that could have occurred. The result was as shocking as it was surprising. It proposed the following.

It is known that Oswald used a 6.5 x 52mm Carcano M91/38 rifle with standard military ammunition designed for penetration but not massive wound cavitation. From evidence of the Zapruder film and other sources, the third shot entered Kennedy’s skull from behind and below and not from behind and above. Johnson was in the limousine behind the President. The third limousine contained several Secret Service agents all armed with revolvers. As per standard procedure, though, on the back floor of that limousine was a loaded AR-15 rifle cocked and ready to be fired in the event of any trouble. In charge of the rifle was a relatively new member of the Secret Service, George Hickey. Hearing Oswald’s first unsuccessful shot, Hickey looked behind to where the shot had come from and then immediately bent down to get the rifle on the floor. The second shot then hit Kennedy. As Hickey was bringing the rifle up above seat height, the order had been given for the motorcade to speed up. With his hand on the trigger and no way to brace himself, the sudden increase in motion knocked Hickey backwards. Instantly and automatically he accidentally fired the rifle hitting the President. The shorter distance between Hickey and Kennedy meant the bullet would have struck at a much higher velocity that one from Oswald’s rifle.

All conspiracy theories are a mixture of plausibility and conjecture. What makes this more plausible to me is that the Secret Service rifle was loaded with the type of bullet which killed Kennedy. There is also debate about the entry wound and whether it was level with a shot fired from the 6th floor of the Book Depository or from a lower angle. Witness Hugh W. Betzner Jnr. saw someone in the motorcade with a rifle and “a flash of pink”. In addition seven witnesses stated they smelled gunpowder at street level immediately after the shooting. Senator Yarborough who was riding with Johnson also claimed he smelled gunpowder.

We all know that there was near chaos in the trauma room in Dallas and that the autopsy in Washington was totally botched with endless Secret Service, army and other personnel entering and leaving as though it was Grand Central station. The autopsy findings have been generally discredited resulting in little direct evidence of the angle at which that fatal shot entered Kennedy’s skull. A Secret Service cover-up could have been well in the works by this time.

Had this been the scenario, a lot of what happened falls neatly into place. However, the chance of such a freak accident happening must admittedly be tiny. Although the programme did not advance the theory into the events of Oswald’s murder by Jack Ruby, to me it is the most credible I have heard so far.

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#3 Re: JFK Assassination

Postby Gaybutton » Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:30 am

fountainhall wrote:Oswald would have had an easy direct shot almost dead ahead of him.

I've always wondered about that part too, but it's not enough to cause me to believe anyone else was involved. There could be any number of reasons why Oswald did not take the direct shot - and since Oswald did not live to be brought to trial, it would all be guesses and conjecture.

That, along with the pristine bullet that did so much damage not only to Kennedy, but also to Governor Connally, does cause me to believe in the possibility of someone else being involved, but if the pristine bullet was planted, it makes no sense to me that someone would plant a pristine bullet or plant a bullet at all. Why do that? Also, if the pristine bullet was not the actual bullet, then what became of the bullet that did do the damage?

I'm disappointed that finally revealing the JFK documents that had been classified for so many years didn't contain any startling new information.

Another thing I wonder about - Dorothy Kilgallen - who said she had information that would "blow the case wide open." Shortly after that, she was found dead and her article had disappeared.

There are a lot of "what really happened?" questions, but so far none of them, in my opinion, point to anyone else and definitely nobody specific.

If Oswald was set up or if there was an accomplice, I'd love to know who - and why.

That was one thing that for me always stood out from the Oliver Stone movie - the part with Donald Sutherland talking to Kevin Costner, when he says, "That's the real question, isn't it? Why? The how and the who is just scenery for the public. Oswald, Ruby, Cuba, the Mafia - keeps them guessing like some kind of parlor game - prevents them from asking the most important question, why. Why was Kennedy killed? Who benefited? Who has the power to cover it up? Who?"

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#4 Re: JFK Assassination

Postby Bob » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:00 am

Gaybutton wrote:....I'm disappointed that finally revealing the JFK documents that had been classified for so many years didn't contain any startling new information.

The Warren Commission issued its lengthy report (which I read cover to cover) and correctly concluded that Oswald acted alone and nothing of substance has changed that conclusion in the last 54 years. This Commission was chaired by Earl Warren, a man of impeccable credentials in my opinion, and there's no rational basis (including all of the recently released documents) to question the Commission's findings. Given I expected that the newly-released raft of documents would contain no "smoking gun" (let alone any small kindling for conspiracy theorists), I wasn't disappointed at all.

This topic reminded me of a recent dinner I had with a falang acquaintance who, during the course of the dinner, attempted to get me to agree with him that the CIA killed Kennedy (followed by other inane claims including his "pièce de résistance" - that the US government caused the collapse of the twin towers on 9/11). While that dinner experience will never be repeated, I keep wondering what the hell has gone wrong with the educational systems around the world to allow such a raft of crazy conspiracy theorists to thrive. "Thinking" people actually believe this crap, believe anything they read on the internet (without any apparent electrical activity occurring between their ears), and then top it off by voting for Trump believing he would actually do anything to benefit them??? I'm close to concluding that Darwin had it backwards.

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#5 Re: JFK Assassination

Postby Gaybutton » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:57 am

Bob wrote:I'm close to concluding that Darwin had it backwards.

The optimistic part is nature usually has its way of sooner or later correcting mistakes.

"God made the ocean. God made the sky. God made the people. God knows why."
- Lee Marvin (Ben Rumson), 'Paint Your Wagon'

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#6 Re: JFK Assassination

Postby fountainhall » Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:39 am

I know precious little about guns and even less about bullets. But I fail to understand how the second bullet penetrated very cleanly through part of Kennedy's body shattering bones on its path before hitting Connally. Then the third explodes when it hits Kennedy's skull and shatters it into fragments. Had it been the same type of bullet as the second, surely it would either have hit the back, passed through the brain and exited through part of his face? The Warren Commission must have discussed this. I would be interested to hear its conclusion as I have never read the report.

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#7 Re: JFK Assassination

Postby Bob » Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:49 pm

fountainhall wrote:The Warren Commission must have discussed this. I would be interested to hear its conclusion as I have never read the report.

Yes, they did discuss the various bullets, trajectories (all concluded to be from emanating from an elevated position....i.e., the 6th floor of the school depository), and impacts. The Warren Commission Report is online and available for anyone to read.

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#8 Re: JFK Assassination

Postby firecat69 » Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:58 pm

YES I too remember like it was yesterday. I was in Home Room in my High School and like many headed to church in my case the Catholic Church . It was probably one of the last times I visited that church . How different the world would have been had he not been killed. Nobody knows for sure but JFK had already proved that he did not trust the Military Industrial Complex and I am quite sure there would have never been a Vietnam War.

Once was not enough . Bobby was probably even a better person and there is no doubt he would have pulled us out of Vietnam, but they ( who knows for sure) killed him also . Not once but twice, 2 brothers who were deeply suspicious of the Military Industrial Complex and both taken out.

Certainly a case can be made that the world would be a different place had either survived.

Currently reading a new book "Bobby Kennedy A Raging Spirit," by Chris Matthews. Excellent Read!

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#9 Re: JFK Assassination

Postby Gaybutton » Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:22 pm

firecat69 wrote:Bobby was probably even a better person

I think so too. It was actually Bobby who orchestrated and negotiated the deal with Khrushchev that brought a peaceful outcome to the Cuban missile crisis. Can you imagine what would have happened if Trump was president at that time?


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