Groping

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Gaybutton
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#1 Groping

Postby Gaybutton » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:53 pm

What's with all these groping accusations, many from 30 or more years ago, suddenly coming out, seemingly against just about everybody prominent in the movie industry and politically?

Other than those accused who admit it, you know how many I believe? Zero. After all these accusations, I'm not so sure I even believe the accusations against Bill Cosby anymore. People doing the accusing - prove it. Back up your accusations with more than just your say-so. And while you're at it, please explain why you're coming out with these accusations so many years later.

While I'm sure many will disagree with me, my opinion is if someone makes these kinds of accusations, especially years later, but can't back up their accusations with solid evidence, then my feeling is even if the accusations are true - tough shit. You should have made your accusations at the time.

And how come it's always men being accused? Don't women ever grope anybody? After all, there have been plenty of times when female teachers ended up in prison for sex with their students. Maybe men don't feel like victims and were delighted if it happened to them. No lesbian gropers?

Today, the latest accusation was leveled against Sylvester Stallone. Who will be accused tomorrow?

Many careers have been irrevocably harmed or destroyed as a result of these accusations - that is, all except one. Donald Trump not only admitted it, but was proud of it, reveled in it, and yet was still elected president and nobody from among his followers seems to give a damn.

My "I Don't Get It" list usually applies just to Thailand - but with regard to Trump and the way these accusations seem to affect everybody - except him - it's on my list anyway.

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#2 Re: Groping

Postby RichLB » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:38 pm

I agree this current brouhaha is getting rediculous. No one supports sexual molestation, but isn't the media stretching that term to an untenable limit?. Is there anyone who hasn't kissed another without asking for permission first? Of course not, yet that is being considered a crime now. On numerous occasions I've had spontaneous hugs come my way - as have most people. Is that now considered sexual molestation? In an effort to protect women (and men) from unwanted sexual attention, let's not create a world where we're afraid to spontaneously show affection.

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#3 Re: Groping

Postby firecat69 » Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:35 pm

I think the problem is that women have been 2nd class citizens for hundreds of years . First they were not allowed to vote and then they were never paid the same as their male co- workers and are still not. Many men have treated them as sex objects .

Your observation about priests taking advantage of boys only strengthens the argument. Priests are and were in a position of power as are men in most of these cases. Hollywood is a cesspool of that kind attempted domination.

Saying they should have said something back then fails to take into account the control these men had over their careers . The dam has broken and more and more women are likely to come out with stories that happened to them many years ago.

I agree it is hard to listen to especially from 40 years ago . But it speaks to the character of the men being accused whether or not they had not done it in recent years.

There will be many more accusations so get used to it. Women feel empowered and I for one love it. The USA would be in a lot better shape if there had been some women Presidents .

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#4 Re: Groping

Postby fountainhall » Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:52 pm

fountainhall wrote:People doing the accusing - prove it. Back up your accusations with more than just your say-so.

How on earth do you PROVE something that occurred almost certainly in private almost 30 or 40 years ago? The fact is you can't except in the very unlikely event there happened to be a hidden witness or two! There were no cell phones then! No other way of alerting other people. And if you were in some way molested - which is much more than an innocent hug - the times were such that coming out and accusing a man much more senior and no doubt well respected was a no-no. Remember, too, that just as rape has little to do with sexual gratification and far more with the assertion of power over another individual, such sexual molestation is also to do with power - at least in my book. I also believe it is nothing to do with a show of innocent affection. They are completely different.

Had something similar happened to me in my late teens with a University Professor or in my early 20s with a Supervisor, I would have kept quiet, too. Both had power over me - and then who would have believed me? And I would also have felt ashamed of myself.

You say you believe none of them. What about the (so far) 20 young staff and actors at London's Old Vic Theatre where Kevin Spacey was Artistic Director for 11 years? These include allegations of sexually inappropriate behaviour. You believe absolutely none of them even though you know nothing of those cases? Here is a man who was well-known in the acting business to be a bastard and a predator (yes, I had heard the rumours long before I was told of them by some in that business and long before I went to see him in Singapore playing Richard III some years ago). I believe absolutely every one of them.

Proof is impossible in such cases. So all we can do is assess each allegation and each personality to the best of our ability and make up our own minds. As for Judge Roy Moore, it is perfectly clear to me this man is guilty. There has to be some reason for a 32 year old man being banned from hanging around a mall for preying on young students or phoning a school number to contact a young female student merely to ask her out for a date. Besides, anyone who saw his rebuttal on Fox News surely had to see a man who was guilty of at least some of the charges. It was very much a Clarence Thomas act! He did and continues to "protest too much!"

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#5 Re: Groping

Postby Gaybutton » Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:28 pm

fountainhall wrote:How on earth do you PROVE something that occurred almost certainly in private almost 30 or 40 years ago?

That is precisely the point. They can't prove it. I'm not willing to accept that all these people being accused really did what they were accused of doing or whether it was anything to the degree of these allegations.

How would you feel if 30 or 40 years later some vindictive person decided to accuse you of something you didn't do - and no evidence of any kind for the accuser to back up the accusation? Would you sit still for people to believe the accuser?

As for Kevin Spacey, don't try to decide for me what I do or do not believe. he publicly admitted and apologized it once he was accused. So I do believe those accusations. But his career is up Shit Creek now.

My position on this is if you can't back it up, then don't make the accusation. I think it is totally wrong to destroy someone's career so many years later with no evidence of any kind other than the accusation itself.

I also don't buy the idea that women simply didn't feel empowered enough until now. Maybe I missed it, but I don't recall any of the accusers saying that was the reason they kept quite about it for such a long time.

Are these women lying? Are they exaggerating? Are they remembering wrong? Are they telling the truth, just the way it really happened? The answer is I don't know. And I'm not willing to ruin someone's career solely on the basis of an accusation.

Haven't you ever been accused of something you didn't do? I think we all have - whether something serious or something frivolous such as parents believing you did it, but it was really your brother.

Believe the allegations if you so choose, but I, for one, will believe them if, and only if, there is better evidence than only the accusation.

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#6 Re: Groping

Postby firecat69 » Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:44 pm

Unfortunately you are the same kind of person that failed to believe Clinton was a pig until the bloody dress( me included). All the women who accused him were in all likelihood telling the truth. (How are they supposed to prove it) Ridiculous to assume they had cameras rolling.

Do you think it easy for these women to come out years after? They have been empowered by the brave women who told their story about Moore. He is a piece of crap. Do they have photographic evidence? Of course not. They are married and have children, how can you think it is easy to tell their stories years later.

Franken handled it correctly. He acted like a pig and got caught. He admitted it and apologized. Good for him. He will most likely not lose his seat.

Meanwhile we have the Pig in Chief in the White House. I assume you believed all those women. Why. They had no proof.

How many actors in Hollywood had to suck cock to advance their careers or hide their identity? Lots I would guess!

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#7 Re: Groping

Postby fountainhall » Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:12 pm

Gaybutton wrote:As for Kevin Spacey, don't try to decide for me what I do or do not believe. he publicly admitted and apologized it once he was accused. So I do believe those accusations.

I am merely stating facts. Spacey has admitted one account of "possible" sexual molestation of a 14-year old boy when he alleges he was drunk. There have been dozens of new accusations to which he has made no response. Plus he has responded to none of the accusations I referred to made by the young men at London's Old Vic Theatre. Does his silence mean he is guilty of none of the other offences? Or does the fact that he has admitted to one therefore mean he is automatically guilty of all the others?

I grant this is an extremely difficult subject. Attitudes to belief or not will inevitably depend very much on personal views.

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#8 Re: Groping

Postby Gaybutton » Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:07 pm

fountainhall wrote:Does his silence mean he is guilty of none of the other offences? Or does the fact that he has admitted to one therefore mean he is automatically guilty of all the others?

I don't know. I look at it from the evidence standpoint, as if I were part of a jury. It doesn't matter what I, you, or anyone else believes. It only matters what can be proved or at least has far better credible evidence than the accusation itself. The accusation, in and of itself, to me does not constitute credible evidence.

If Spacey admits to having done it once, I don't know whether he did it again, perhaps many times. Do you know? If your answer is yes, I'd like you to tell me how you know. If the answer is no, what would it take to convince you that he's "guilty as charged"? If your answer is "I don't know," then it seems you agree with me.

In my opinion, neither he nor any of the others accused are obligated to prove a thing. That burden, again my opinion, rests on the accusers.


firecat69 wrote:Lots I would guess!

That's just the point. All we can do is guess. That's not good enough for me.

Cameras rolling? Easy to tell tell their stories years later? Photographic evidence? Where did I say any of that?

I believe the women accusing Trump because, as we all know, Trump's "pussy grabbing" is on tape.

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#9 Re: Groping

Postby firecat69 » Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:35 pm

I can't believe you are arguing this point so badly. Trump made a generalization on tape that you can grab their pussy . None of the women provided the kind of proof you say you need and yet you believe them.

Naturally you did not answer me about Clinton because I am sure you thought he was innocent. And that is the point. Rarely can these charges be proved unless the pig admits it. You have to look at what the accusers have to gain and what they lose by coming forward . Then balance that and make your decision.

No doubt Moore is a pig (in my mind) and yet many stupid people say (where is the proof?) Ridiculous!

Franken admitted it so the only question will more women come forward or was this a one time thing (doubtful ) but possible. In which case he will survive.

Women finally are standing up for their rights and to men who treated them badly. Good for them and it is ok with me if a few charges cause more damage than would have been done if someone had stood up earlier.

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#10 Re: Groping

Postby Gaybutton » Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:07 pm

firecat69 wrote:Naturally you did not answer me about Clinton

What was I supposed to answer? You didn't ask a question.

I did, however, ask you questions. Before criticizing me for failing to answer a question when you didn't ask a question, how about answering mine - the ones I did ask . . .


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