China and its Influence Now and in the Future

fountainhall
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#31 Re: China and its Influence Now and in the Future

Postby fountainhall » Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:36 pm

firecat69 wrote:FH. Your ability to pull out articles from 1-70 years ago to support your arguments is amazing.

Oh! Come now, firecat69! Whenever have I posted an article that is more than a few years old? Granted that SCMP article is 7 years old but it was offering facts which had hitherto been either unknown or mere speculation. You could have planted yourself back in 1969 if you had the ability to travel back in time. If you had, you would have been utterly clueless about what is in that article - other than that there were serious tensions on the Sino-Soviet border.

Those who say China is now a communist state really have little clue about communism. It was an economic and social system devised by Marx and put into effect by Lenin and his cronies. It called for virtually all property and resources to be owned by the state and not by individuals. It called for common ownership of all land and capital . . . and so on. Present day China is almost the exact opposite of communist! The primary difference between China and the west is that China is ruled by a group of unelected leaders. And yes, the massive development of the county has resulted in conditions for some people which those in the west would not certainly accept nowadays, at least not without some form of referendum or public debate. But those of us brought up in the west often forget how western countries became rich. We conveniently forget the slaughter of Native Americans, the treatment of slaves and even African Americans not so many decades ago. We forget about Britain being perfectly happy for children as young as 8 to work in the mines for 12 hours each day 7 days a week to enrich the growing merchant class. We forget about its forcing millions of Chinese into a ghastly death through its insistence on paying for its imports with opium instead of silver. We now turn a blind eye to the disgrace of Belgian colonialism in the Congo or the Dutch in Indonesia . . . And how long did it take western countries to get away from rule by oligarchs, those born rich or rich landowners, and implement full democratic rights to all citizens? Many hundreds of years.

Present-day China basically began barely 40 years ago. Prior to that time the country had undergone almost 200 years of utter chaos. And before then it had been an absolute dictatorship for millennia. If you want China to change its system of leadership, you have to persuade the majority of its people that that is what they want. And if you talk to almost any Chinese, many are proud of the fact that, whatever its problems, the unelected Deng Xiao-ping and his team brought 400 million plus of its citizens out of extreme poverty, by far the largest number of people in the shortest possible time in world history, and in the process became the world's second largest economy. How the hell do you go about persuading them that another system can keep the country developing? It's all very well to criticise. But what do you put in its place in a country with 1.4 billion people? And before you answer that one, remember its history, remember what is ingrained in people's minds, remember that there are about 57 different ethnic groupings and that without central control, it is almost certain that the country would have started to break up in the early 1990s.

If you don't want China as it is, what do you want to put in its place? Do you want it to evolve as Russia has from the Soviet Union - i.e. a dictatorship? Do you not agree that Singapore is an old-style oligarchy where democracy counts for little and what the oligarchy wants, the oligarchy gets? How about Japan? Is that democracy? Not in my book - because once again you have to look at the history and the culture and realise that for a large swathe of present day Japanese democracy remains a rather strange unwelcome concept.

firecat69
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#32 Re: China and its Influence Now and in the Future

Postby firecat69 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:56 pm

Well I meant to say articles that discuss China many years ago. Also I am amazed at the economic progress made. Not sure if I told you but my only visit to China was before Tiananmen . I vividly remember no Chinese person would look at a Westerner . Their eyes would immediately go downward , which I assume was out of fear of some Communist member seeing them. I'm glad I saw the Wall and many other buildings but I have never had even the tiniest desire to re-visit.

Compare that to my first to the Soviet Union in relatively the same time period. Young Russians flocked to talk to me in their broken English and invited me to their homes . They ordered pizza and would not let me pay. They had money and nothing to spend it on.

The biggest shopping center at the time was GUM in Red Square and you would see lines form and if you asked why, the reply was trucks are coming. I asked with what? Their reply we don't know but something.

Unfortunately now Russia has never enabled the economic model that China has and they have failed to move forward.

Plus as US citizen, I realize a large part of the gains China has made has been because of trade with the US. Have never thought the US benefited from that trade. I have never stepped inside a Walmart .

That and of course China is the leading thief of intellectual property which helped fuel their gains. But of course they have managed those stolen intellectual properties as well as Trade with the US very well. The politicians in the US have been idiots in their trade policies with China.

fountainhall
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#33 Re: China and its Influence Now and in the Future

Postby fountainhall » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:47 am

I am not sure where you visited prior to June 1989 and when that was. My first experience bears out your view. In Guangzhou in September 1980 foreigners were met with a curious stare but not wholly ignored, if only because many foreigners visited had been visiting the city for the annual autumn Guangzhou Trade Fairs. By 1985/86 when I next visited, things had definitely changed and in Beijing and Shanghai I found a greater openness and a genuine curiosity. Several younger Chinese would come up and start to speak a little English. They would be joined by friends, all interested in learning more about where I came from, all wanting to practice their English - and so on. In those five years, China had definitely started to look outwards.

I will not argue about intellectual property and trade because I basically agree. But the US moaning about uneven trade policies and trying to do something about it did not start with the Chinese. I can well remember the rise of Japan a couple of decades earlier. The US was being swamped by Japanese made goods, especially cars and superior hi-fi goods including Sony's Walkman. Japan had also been "lifting" technology but a bit more openly. E.g. it bought a few Austin cars from the UK to get access to improved engine technology.

When Ronald Reagan was campaigning, doing something to slow down Japanese imports was one of his promises. And he fulfilled his promise. When I first visited japan in 1981 US$1 got me ¥260. By the time Reagan left office, it was around ¥125. Did that stop the flow of imports? For a year or two. Not much more. The Japanese started shifting manufacture offshore to bring down costs. It also became more efficient with real-time inventories. Soon it started opening plants within the USA.

George Bush followed that with threats about Japan having to import many more American cars. Fair point! Yet when I lived in Japan, almost every day I walked past a Chrysler showroom on my way to my office. Rarely did I ever see anyone inside apart from salesmen. That was not because the Japanese did not want to buy American cars - although I am sure many just preferred to stick with their own brands. The reason was far more basic. The vast majority of Japanese roads, outside of the main expressways and inner city avenues, are far narrower than almost anywhere. American manufacturers were still producing large cars, and it was all but impossible for them to be driven on most of the country's roads! Add in the fact that US manufacturers did not even bother to switch their left-hand drive cars to the right-hand drive of Japan. There was a basically idiotic assumption that without doing any research into conditions within the country supply of such cars would create its own demand.

Two anecdotes, one about each country. I spent much of the early part of 1997 in Beijing, I used to spend many evenings in the private sector San Li tun district north of the Embassy quarter. At that time this was all small individually and family-run private sector shops, cafes, restaurants and clubs, some attracting the emerging gay crowd. I frequented one tiny restaurant regularly because I fancied one of the young waiters! Got nowhere, though! His ambition was to go to the US to study. I remember one evening we were having a discussion and he said: "We Chinese all admire the USA. But why do they hate us so much?" That was difficult to answer!

When George Bush Snr. visited Japan in January 1992, he was entertained for dinner by the Prime Minister. Half way thorough, Bush suddenly got up and then vomited all over his host. The Japanese then invented a new word. To do a "bushuru" is to be sick over your neighbour!

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#34 Re: China and its Influence Now and in the Future

Postby Dodger » Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:24 pm

fountainhall wrote:I frequented one tiny restaurant regularly because I fancied one of the young waiters

Is there anywhere in China where you can hook up with a gay boy...or is that scene too subdued?

fountainhall
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#35 Re: China and its Influence Now and in the Future

Postby fountainhall » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:53 pm

Virtually everywhere! There are gay bars in the major cities, although they are not very well patronised. The only one I know which rocks is Destination in Beijing where it is packed at week-ends with loads of mostly tallish, in-shape great looking guys.

But the apps can bring you loads of hits. In Beijing 3 years ago I met three different guys during my three night stay. I mentioned in another thread about my short trip to Chengdu (location of the Panda Reserve) almost 6 years ago before I had a smartphone and relied on gayromeo and the site that is now all but dead, fridae. There are 18 universities in that city. I met guys every night even though I was in a hotel quite far from the centre of the city. On my last evening, one young man was desperate to meet but I just had no more time. He asked when I was leaving. The next day at noon, I said. He then asked if he could come round in the morning!! He did and we had a great time. Not one of the guys I have met on the apps sought any form of cash, even for transport, although I did offer two dinner as I enjoyed their company so much.

Even on my one night in Kunming in Yunnan Province 2 years ago, I had several requests on one of the apps. Blued seems to be the most popular now in China, but you will find some guys on Hornet, Jack'd and Grindr. Go and enjoy!

The one thing to be careful of is meeting guys on the street. There are several scams going on where you could well find yourself with a few more guys turning up as soon as you are in your hotel room with that cute guy you just met. They are not there because they want to join the party. They are there to relieve you of your cash and valuables. And resistance is all but useless.

firecat69
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#36 Re: China and its Influence Now and in the Future

Postby firecat69 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:39 pm

On my way to South Africa ( my new favorite country) so will be out of touch for a couple of days. Hoping no War is started by either of the Idiots.


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