Gone With The Hot Air

fountainhall
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#11 Re: Gone With The Hot Air

Postby fountainhall » Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:22 pm

Funny thing is: a great many in Russia still actually admire Stalin! 6 years ago the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace found that whilst 65 percent of Russians agreed that "Stalin was a cruel, inhuman tyrant, responsible for the deaths of millions of innocent people," 45% also had a "generally positive" view about him! Much has to do with the fact that he led the Soviet Union to victory in the "Great Patriotic War" over the Nazis. Not sure if there are many statues of him outside his native Georgia, though.

http://theweek.com/articles/467027/why- ... ove-stalin

Brooklyn Bridge
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#12 Re: Gone With The Hot Air

Postby Brooklyn Bridge » Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:08 pm

Actually, the American Civil War was an extension of the English Civil War.

The Puritans came over on the Mayflower and settled in New England where they attempted to established a "New Jerusalem" based on sober Biblical morality. They were industrious, inventive, and created over time a capitalist manufacturing economy. The Abolitionist cause emerged from the same religious fervor that created the Battle Hymn of the Republic ("Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord"). It created and sustained the Union cause.

The Cavaliers settled in the Southern colonies-- Virginia, the Carolinas, Georgia (those names say it all) -- where they established an aristocratic plantation economy that required unpaid labor to generate economic viability. The courtly, elegant balls in "Gone With the Wind" were danced, cavalierly, on the lashed backs of slaves.

The single most important figure in creating the conflict was a Connecticut Yankee, Eli Whitney, whose invention of the Cotton Gin insured that cotton grown on the plantations would feed the mills of New and Old England. But he also invented the mass-produced rifle with interchangeable parts. The Union's industrial might was the deciding factor in the final victory.

The North fought the first modern war; the South, the last gallant war. In 1865, the Roundheads won decisively, but the Cavaliers still romanticize their loss.

PeterUK
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#13 Re: Gone With The Hot Air

Postby PeterUK » Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:45 pm

fountainhall wrote: No one can disguise the fact that it was over slavery, the forced removal of humans from lands far away, the buying and selling of humans, the horrible abuses most then suffered and the vast profits gained as a result. I cannot accept that anyone fighting for such a cause is worthy of public remembrance in a public space.

I am belatedly won over by this argument of yourself and others. I allowed my distaste for PC posturing to cloud my judgement, but this is not posturing, it's genuine grievance. The analogy that settles it for me is with Nazi Germany. Which Nazi figure most closely resembles Robert E. Lee? Erwin Rommel, I would say: a brilliant general, a decent man beloved by those who served under him, a sympathiser and possible conspirator in a plot to kill Hitler, which cost him his life. But would I welcome statues in his honour? Of course not, because of the abhorrent cause he fought for.

Another point which I failed to consider is that the statues of Lee and other Confederate generals were not put up in a disinterested desire to preserve the historical record and honour service and sacrifice as I fondly imagined, but were erected in two main waves at times when white supremacist feelings were on the increase in the South. In other words, they were put up so that people could gloat.

And now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to look for a horsehair shirt...

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Bob
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#14 Re: Gone With The Hot Air

Postby Bob » Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:26 pm

Not to worry, Peter, I can understand the distaste for the political correctness crowd....although I normally only get my hackles up about it when I read a history book that appears to be written or edited by one of them.

Now, about the horsehair shirt, I'd strongly advise against it. Simply too many agonizing pricks. Better atonement would be served by renting out one of the lovely tan pricks located at a venue near you...

fountainhall
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#15 Re: Gone With The Hot Air

Postby fountainhall » Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:49 pm

I have a solution as to what to do with all those statues. I doubt if Museums can make sufficient space available to accommodate large statues. So why not emulate Moscow? It has an official "Fallen Monuments Park" located by the Moskva River. It is the largest open air Sculpture Park in the country with about 700 statues and artworks from Soviet times on display and another 200 in storage. In recent years, it has added additional spaces and now includes an open-air contemporary art museum, a special exhibition space, a music festival venue and a massive creative workshop!

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Gaybutton
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#16 Re: Gone With The Hot Air

Postby Gaybutton » Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:53 pm

You know what I think is going to happen? After the statues are removed, artists will create new ones - depicting the same people whose statues were removed. Then, if an attempt is made to remove those statues too, they'll claim removal violates their constitutional right of free speech under the first amendment.

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#17 Re: Gone With The Hot Air

Postby Brooklyn Bridge » Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:23 pm

My mind keeps going back to the propagandized moment when a small cadre of "liberated" Iraqis pulled down the statue of Saddam Hussein. Had they no respect for their heritage?

My point is that these statues began not as memorials to the heroic past but as symbols of white power and warnings to the still-subjugated blacks to know their place.

I find it interesting that those who abhor "political correctness" only recognize it when it's exercised by minorities, of color and gender. They don't realize that the overwhelming application of PC is in favor of the white male majority. So it is not "politically correct" to be in favor of the statues, or to be against Colin Kaepernick's open demonstration of dissent from the Star Spangled Banner, or to support all-white fraternities. even though it is clearly the imposition of the political views of the majority.

So what is Political Correctness? To me, it's an utterly useless term, designed to exclude people you dislike from the conversation. That's why you hear it so much on Fox News.

PeterUK
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#18 Re: Gone With The Hot Air

Postby PeterUK » Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:19 pm

Bob wrote:Not to worry, Peter...

Fortunately, I'm not a politician. I don't have to pretend to be infallible.


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