Consequences of Trump's Win - 4

fountainhall
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#341 Re: Consequences of Trump's Win - 4

Postby fountainhall » Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:13 pm

Captain Kirk wrote:Politicians told so many lies over so many years that the US public turned against them and voted for a guy who said he'd "drain the swamp".

Returning to Bangkok last night on Emirates, I managed to catch four episodes of a new and superb documentary series about the Vietnam War. The lies consistently told by Kennedy, Johnson and their administrations were based on a total misreading of a part of the world few knew anything about and an utterly flawed ideology. They now seem a great deal worse than those trotted out by Trump and his merry men. After all, those lies in the '50s, 60s and '70s resulted in massive destruction, the loss of many millions of lives and ultimate humiliation for both the French and the USA.

As The Guardian's TV critic noted -=

Documentary master Ken Burns brings the most extraordinary look at Vietnam ever to the small screen. And from guerrilla truths to dead people’s testimonies, it will rock history

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radi ... ocumentary

firecat69
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#342 Re: Consequences of Trump's Win - 4

Postby firecat69 » Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:57 pm

I haven't seen the Documentary so can't comment on it. But trying to put JFK in the same mix as Johnson shows a different interpretation from mine of USA and its history in that period. There were a few thousand fighting soldiers and thousands of support advisors ( total 16,000 in Vietnam before JFK was assassinated . JFK would never have committed hundreds of thousands of soldiers . Quite to the contrary he almost always stood up agains the military industrial complex , especially after he got burned by the military and CIA in the Cuba debacle a few weeks into his Administration. The most responsibility you can put on him is his nomination of Robert McNamara as Defense Secretary . JFK
could not stand what the Communists did to Buddhist Monks.

But JFK unlike LBJ would never followed the yellow brick rd that Johnson did . Bobby Kennedy was his most trusted confident and would have been aghast at the Military trying to push a Major War in SE Asia.

It never would have happened. Keep in mind there were 16,000 US Soldiers in Vietnam a small % of actual fighting soldiers . They were there because of the Disgusting Communists actions in the murder of Buddhist Monks. That's right the Communists!

We should never forget the start of this War was because of the Disgusting Communists and their acts against Religious Leaders. Seems to me the Communists in China continue that road to this day of religious suppression!

There are hundreds of books written about what JFK would have done . I grew up in that era and I side with those who feel JFK never would have allowed the escalation that Johnson did. He would have never entered there except for the Revolting Communists and their actions against religious leaders.

I think the massive escalation of troops and the continuation under Nixon are a stain on the US and its actions in the War are disgusting to me.

But it all started with the Communists. Communists in China, Soviet Union and Vietnam. The thing that all apologists forget when it comes to China , Soviet Union etc is that it is Communism that continues to cause havoc in the world . Putting lipstick on a Pig does not change the fact that it is still a pig.

http://www3.nccu.edu.tw/~lorenzo/Jian%2 ... ietnam.pdf

fountainhall
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#343 Re: Consequences of Trump's Win - 4

Postby fountainhall » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:59 pm

Perhaps it might be an idea if you actually watched the documentary as I was merely reporting what the documentary makers reported. And given the praise the series has garnered, I don't doubt most of its accuracy. [Note - you talk of my lack of understanding of US history. Why get personal? They were not my ideas. They were those of the film makers!]

First point to note is that I only bracketed Kennedy, Johnson and Nixon because it was under their Presidencies that the war was conducted. Indeed it was under Kennedy that it effectively started as far as the US was concerned. But I agree with you – I think! I do not believe you can bracket Kennedy with the other two. Yet you cannot help wondering how Kennedy, having got in and given his words at the time which I come to later, would have got out. It is an fascinating problem.

The fact is, though, that the Vietnam War started long before the US got involved - in any capacity whether by government action or secret CIA involvement. And the start had absolutely nothing to do with communism - absolutely nothing! The desire of Vietnam to have independence was a movement against a vicious French colonial power. As soon as the Japanese surrendered, Ho Chi Minh proclaimed independence, using some of the phrases from the US Declaration of Independence. On several occasions he had earlier tried to get Roosevelt and Truman to help get rid of the hated French colonial power. After all, the USA was staunchly anti-colonialism. Sadly for what was to happen, both turned Ho down and allowed the French back into Indo-China. The French did not like the Vietnamese and most of their soldiers did not want to be there. I cannot recall how many commanders they had in a small number of years, but the last one who planned the stand at Dien Bien Phu and promised the French who had by then grown weary of the war it would result in total French victory, committed suicide when he realised his plan had been a total and utter disaster.

Kennedy toured Vietnam in 1951 prior to the end of that war with the French. At that time he certainly did not believe that military force could overcome the forces commanded by Ho. Russia was soon to start feeding ordinance to the North and China was to follow. So from that point onwards Vietnam did indeed became a Cold War pawn. But only from that point.

You appended an article to your post. Interestingly, it stresses the following –

After the signing of the Geneva agreement [in 1962], the leaders in Beijing seemed more willing than their comrades in Hanoi to accept the fact that Vietnam would be indefinitely divided.


As for Kennedy, none of us has any clue how he would have treated the war in Vietnam had he lived. You'll recall his inaugural address,

"...we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to insure the survival and the success of liberty."

South Vietnam fell into the group of friends. Eisenhower had warned Kennedy he would have to send in troops. Kennedy wrote to the South Vietnamese President later that year, "the United States is determined to help Vietnam preserve its independence..." - this despite South Vietnam being to all intents and purposes a murdering dictatorship. He then started to send military advisers to the South. The first 400 were soon increased by Kennedy to over 16,000, as you point out. He also sent in troops to pilot the helicopters he sent over, thus involving Americans in combat operations. He justified this by saying it was

"to prevent a Communist takeover of Vietnam which is in accordance with a policy our government has followed since 1954."

He also stated in a television interview with Chet Huntley in September 1963,

"What I am concerned about is that Americans will get impatient and say, because they don't like events in Southeast Asia or they don't like the Government in Saigon, that we should withdraw. That only makes it easy for the Communists. I think we should stay."

"I think we should stay" is surely pretty clear!

Kennedy was pressed by his advisers to get out of Vietnam, the more so when Buddhist monks started to immolate themselves in Saigon. To suggest that this was caused by communist actions is utterly laughable and totally untrue. It was a demonstration against the corrupt, murderous dictatorship of President Ngo Dinh Diem and his loathed brother Ngo Dinh Nhu. In this protest the Buddhists were joined by the South's important Catholic community,

Given Kennedy's stated views, it is hard to believe he would have got out of Vietnam and let the North take control. Initially Congress would probably not have permitted it. Those in power in the USA were still in thrall to the China lobby and the constant refrain of "Who lost China to communism?"

Perhaps he thought his approval to the coup which led to the murder of the Ngo bothers less than 3 weeks before he himself was assassinated would lead to a change in the south that would lead it to finally take greater control of its own defence. In fact it threw the south into even greater turmoil. But what he might have done will always remain one of life's great mysteries. No one can state anything as fact.

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#344 Re: Consequences of Trump's Win - 4

Postby firecat69 » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:08 am

Bottom Line I always get into these back and forth with you , since you and many others in the world are apologists for the fact that it is Communist China.

I know many have dropped the Communist and for the life of me I cannot figure out why. IMHO the only difference between despot Dictators and Communism is that Communists have a party ( composed of a minute portion of the citizens).who gets to vote for who is the Supreme Leader. Yes the Communists recognized that with more then a billion people to rule they would have to share the fruits of this strange Capitalism.

Many apologist would like to forget that China managed this miracle by running sweat shops to a degree never known in the Modern World and they had the help of Companies in the Western World who were only interested in profits .

Bottom line China has no free elections, no courts to protect them and no free press.Rather then a Dictator they have a small group of citizens that get to vote for who is President etc.

Has China managed this totalitarianism better then any other Country in the modern world to create an Economic Miracle, nobody can argue with.

That does not change the fact that the population has only the rights to do with what they want with their money etc. that the Party allows them.

Who knows it may continue if they are able to seize intellectual property of the Western World but then again it may not as more and more companies have figured out that it's not such a great deal anymore and return their industry to their own countries.

Of course unfortunately Trump has been a great help to them , allowing them to make deals for trade with a large part of the world while he sucks his thumb.

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#345 Re: Consequences of Trump's Win - 4

Postby Captain Kirk » Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:23 am

I'd recommend the Vietnam War series also. It has been running in the Uk the past couple of months and is highly rated.

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#346 Re: Consequences of Trump's Win - 4

Postby firecat69 » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:58 am

This is Communist China :

The party owns all the land and they evicted people as they do for all the empty skyscrapers they keep building in order to stop the bubble from bursting. If they complain they are thrown in jail as many were, when after the Olympics they asked for their payments.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-olym ... 3220070605

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#347 Re: Consequences of Trump's Win - 4

Postby firecat69 » Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:45 am

Since in many ways Communist China is a closed society, getting facts about the economy are not easy, especially if you are looking for facts and not BS.

I choose a recent article by Bloomberg News since I think Michael Bloomberg rarely makes a bad business decision and I would guess Bloomberg News is no different.

There are hundreds maybe thousands of articles on empty cities and what the real economic future is for Communist China and I am just posting this one.

Can I take what they say to the bank? Of course not but it is much more likely they will be telling the truth . A lot of those developers borrowed money and relied on what the Communists told them would be the results. So far maybe it is not going so good and there is little current building compared to the last 7 years.

If the dominoes fall, does anyone think the Communist Party members will be the ones who suffer. I don't.

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles ... ge-is-over

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#348 Re: Consequences of Trump's Win - 4

Postby fountainhall » Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:17 am

Firecat69 - we all know from your previous postings that you abhor Communism and what you term Communist China. Fine! Your prerogative (subject to the rules of this Board). But don't you realise that this recent discussion is about a documentary television series on the Vietnam War? It is essentially about the historical background to that war and how successive Presidents reacted to it and tried to bring it to a conclusion without America being seen to back down.

China, as I pointed out from the article you posted, played a minor role in that ghastly war. Point your finger at Russia and the Cold War if you are apportioning blame on communists. But you have to accept that the United States and its illegal wars in Laos and Cambodia aligned to the atrocities it committed in Vietnam (as highlighted in detail in the Series) was no bright shining knight in this war.

And to get back to the point of my bringing it up, it was that the lies told in public by successive Presidents - yes, including Kennedy - were so much worse taken in the context of millions being killed than the lies being told by Trump.

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#349 Re: Consequences of Trump's Win - 4

Postby fountainhall » Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:51 pm

Trump Plays Golf to 3 Handicap? Who's Kidding Who?

Suzann Pettersen, the 15-time LPGA Tour winner and a golfing partner of Donald Trump, says the president “cheats like hell” on the golf course.

Pettersen, who has known Trump for a decade and says she is fond of the president even though she does not agree with his policies, was speaking to the Norwegian newspaper Verdens Gang.

“He cheats like hell ... so I don’t quite know how he is in business,” said Pettersen. “They say that if you cheat at golf, you cheat at business. I’m pretty sure he pays his caddie well, since no matter how far into the woods he hits the ball, it’s in the middle of the fairway when we get there.”

Trump is listed as having a three handicap, a phenomenal achievement for a man in his 70s who also has to find time to run a country. Pettersen is a little skeptical of that figure.

“He always says he is the world’s best putter. But in all the times I’ve played him, he’s never come close to breaking 80,” she said. “But what’s strange is that every time I talk to him he says he just golfed a 69, or that he set a new course record or won a club championship some place

No doubt that's all just fake news!! :roll: :roll:

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#350 Re: Consequences of Trump's Win - 4

Postby Up2u » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:12 pm

Trump's SOTU speech was well delivered and somewhat more conciliatory which was a plus. Joe Kennedy's III Democratic reply made key points without naming Trump himself. His delivery was very low key (too low key for me) and the lip gloss was a distraction. I hope DACA becomes a Democrat battle cry.


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