Consequences of Trump's Win - 4

fountainhall
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#251 Re: Consequences of Trump's Win - 4

Postby fountainhall » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:05 am

Gaybutton wrote:They were forbidden to push on to Berlin.

Agreed. But perhaps you might have added some additional parts of that article, viz.

Eisenhower gave us three reasons for standing on the Elbe: His armies were already well beyond the line of the western occupation zones that had been agreed to with the Soviets. Why take casualties [estimated at over 100,000] for land that would have to be handed over? He had always worried about his troops meeting Soviets on the run around a corner. He thought it safer to meet them with a broad river between. And, finally, ''Berlin is only a political objective, not a military objective" . . .

The decision to stand on the Elbe was Ike's, the most controversial decision of his public career. At the time, Britain's Winston Churchill was furious. He wanted every effort made to reach Berlin before the Soviets. And he protested to Roosevelt that Ike had informed Stalin of this decision without consulting Churchill or Roosevelt.

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#252 Re: Consequences of Trump's Win - 4

Postby firecat69 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:20 am

Oh Please . They acted in their own interest and it may have also been in the interest of other parts of the world, that has become more intertwined financially because of the West allowing China to become the 2nd biggest economy in the world. They have reached that point because of stupid politicians in the West allowing them to use their cheap labor to make goods to be sold in the rest of the world.

China has a great history of Art etc created over centuries but once it became Communist China , it ceased to create anything . Please tell me what automobiles, military , aircraft or anything that they have created on their own . They build for the rest of the world on the backs of their Billion plus population . Any Communist Chinese companies have to steal the intellectual properties of the rest of the world in order to pretend they created something on their own.

They do this with the understanding that the vast majority of their population is still dirt poor and likely will remain that way for many many years. They have polluted their own citizens in order to create a small % of people who actually believe they are capitalists..

They are Communists and act only for the good of a very tiny % of the population , in order to hold on to their power. They have not really advanced from Tiananmen Square Massacre but have been good at putting lipstick on a pig.

They throw people in jail, allow no dissent, will seize money of anyone who dares to criticize . They have no free press, no judicial system that even pretends to be fair.

They are Communists and still represent all the bad things about Communists. And fancy trains and buildings cannot change what they are.

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#253 Re: Consequences of Trump's Win - 4

Postby fountainhall » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:53 am

Firecat, I am not going to discuss the China issue with you any more. You have your very set views based, I suggest, on more than a few ill-informed nuggets and precious little actual facts, allied to a misinterpretation of what communism was and what China now is. The fact is China produces masses of varieties of cars (I saw many in Iran recently) and other products of its own. For some time, it has had its own space programme with men in space, men walking in space and a moon landing in the future . . . and so on.

With respect, I have spent 38 years literally on the mainland's doorstep and have visited the country countless dozens of times meeting a wide variety of people, high and low. I believe you have visited once (do correct me o that is wrong). I will not change my views. Equally I am sure you will not change yours. So let's cease discussion between ourselves on China and just agree to disagree.

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#254 Re: Consequences of Trump's Win - 4

Postby Brooklyn Bridge » Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:09 pm

Like so many others in our generation, Firecat, like Archie Bunker, seems to be stuck in a time-warp.

"The Big One: WW2"

Yes, Germany and Japan were once evil. And, yes, the US rehabilitated them.

But since then, war after war, atrocity after atrocity, loss after loss. The US military hasn't won a war since MacArthur stood on the deck of the Missouri.

Calling China names, won't change anything. China is the future.

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#255 Re: Consequences of Trump's Win - 4

Postby Gaybutton » Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:26 pm

fountainhall wrote:I have spent 38 years literally on the mainland's doorstep

That wouldn't have anything to do with your pro-China point of view, would it?

You're certainly entitled to refuse to discuss China further with firecat69, but I would like you to explain what part(s) of his last post he is wrong about.


Brooklyn Bridge wrote:China is the future.

In that case, pass the chow mein . . .

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#256 Re: Consequences of Trump's Win - 4

Postby fountainhall » Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:05 pm

Gaybutton wrote:I would like you to explain what part(s) of his last post he is wrong about.

Please, it is not just about his last post. It is the general view that he continuously advocates re China. It does not matter how positions/arguments are countered, they remain fixed. Now I have no problem with that. Mine are also pretty much fixed based on decades of experience. We are each entitled to our views and to express them subject to the rules of this Board. But I'd have thought that a continuing repetition of "this is correct/no that is incorrect" is not in readers' best interests. Best just to note each position and leave it at that.

Gaybutton wrote:That wouldn't have anything to do with your pro-China point of view, would it?

I'm certain it does. I am not wholly pro-China but I have an enormous admiration for what that country has done in the 40 or so years since the end of the Cultural Revolution. We tend to forget that China was raped by several major powers including the UK and the USA in the 19th century as the Imperial system rotted from within. When the absolute-rule millennia-old Imperial system died, it was then quickly replaced by warlord factions followed quickly by Japanese invasion, outright war, civil war and then Mao's tyranny. So as another poster on another Board accurately stated not so long ago, China is to all intents and purposes a country that is all of 40 years old. How it has been held together, how it has dragged 400 million+ out of poverty - by far the largest number in the shortest period of time in world history - how it has developed (admittedly with help from other countries) in that millisecond of history is nothing short of a miracle.

So I object to this comment -

firecat69 wrote:the vast majority of their population is still dirt poor and likely will remain that way for many many years

To be frank that is a nonsense! At his recent election, President Xi vowed to eliminate poverty by 2020. Compare that with the United States. How many millions/tens of millions live below the poverty line? Or the UK or many other countries? How many of those are destined to remain that way for the rest of their lives?

Another issue is the communism one.

firecat69 wrote:They are Communists and act only for the good of a very tiny % of the population , in order to hold on to their power. They have not really advanced from Tiananmen Square Massacre but have been good at putting lipstick on a pig.
.
Take a sampling of Chinese from both cities and countryside and ask them if they believe that statement is true. Unquestionably the vast majority of answers will be "no". Of course that is based on my experience and my interpretation, but I have never met a Chinese who is a communist or who believes in communism - apart perhaps from one government Minister and a senior civil servant I met in Beijing. Certainly the sister-in-law of a Vice Premier whom I got to know was no communist! Even Mao broke with the Marxism/Leninism of the old Soviet Union. Perhaps Lee Kwan Yew said it best in reference to the difference in democratic values between East and West - he called it "democracy with Asian characteristics." It so happens he made that statement before the Asian Economic crisis exposed the crony capitalism that existed in Asia. But it is equally true that no country in Asia, apart from perhaps Taiwan and the former US colony The Philippines, practises a western version of democracy. All others to a greater or lesser extent are dictatorships that happen to have sham elections.

So China having a one party state is not unusual. In its post-colonial history, both Singapore and Malaysia have only ever had one ruling party which do everything in their power to ensure the situation will not change - including the use of the courts to protect their interests. Japan is almost the same, with the exception of two short periods totalling less than 5 years since the ruling LDP was formed.

I was in Guangzhou in 1980. I have been dozens of times in Beijing and Shanghai and in several other cities and parts of the countryside as China has developed in the most rapid and amazing manner. We should not forget that it was not trade that started the creation of the new China. As Ezra Vogel's biography of Deng Xiao-ping* makes clear, at the end of the 1970s China exported as much in one year as it now exports in a day. Wily Deng realised he would never get cash from western banks. So he went to the Chinese diaspora, the billionaires in Hong Kong and elsewhere and persuaded them to invest in his vision. They started the infusion of capital that would eventually become a flood with western and other companies desperate to get a piece of the Chinese pie. And with a vast and rapidly developing middle class, that domestic pie is going to become very big indeed.

* Deng Xiaoping and the Transformation of China, by Ezra Vogel, Harvard University Press

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#257 Re: Consequences of Trump's Win - 4

Postby Brooklyn Bridge » Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:34 pm

"In that case, pass the chow mein . . ."

Gaybutton, clearly your experience with Chinese cuisine is limited to American take-out.

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#258 Re: Consequences of Trump's Win - 4

Postby RichLB » Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:25 pm

I confess I find this exchange on China highly educational and illuminating. But, I have trouble relating it to "Consequences of Trump's Win". Given the depth and thought displayed in this seires of posts, don't you think they deserve their own thread?

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#259 Re: Consequences of Trump's Win - 4

Postby Gaybutton » Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:03 pm

Brooklyn Bridge wrote:Gaybutton, clearly your experience with Chinese cuisine is limited to American take-out.

Guilty.

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#260 Re: Consequences of Trump's Win - 4

Postby Gaybutton » Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:04 pm

RichLB wrote:don't you think they deserve their own thread?

Actually we do have a topic about the problems with North Korea, but this little debate started out with Trump and North Korea. So, I just let it continue here.


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