Consequences of Trump's Win - 4

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Gaybutton
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#241 Re: Consequences of Trump's Win - 4

Postby Gaybutton » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:00 am

fountainhall wrote:The Soviets had beaten the western allies to Berlin and there was massive concern in Washington that after a brief pause Stalin would simply continue to move his forces west to the Atlantic.

The Soviets beat the western allies to Berlin because Eisenhower permitted it and agreed to virtually give Berlin to Stalin. Stalin had agreed to let the countries that had been free prior to the war remain free post war. Unfortunately, Stalin did not keep his agreements.

When Molotov met with Truman at the White House, Truman spoke to him quite harshly about the agreements being broken. Molotov indignantly said, "I have never been spoken to like that in my life."

Truman's response - "If you and the generalissimo would keep your agreements, you won't get spoken to like that."

As for the USA keeping the Soviets at bay, that could have been done without the Marshall Plan. Once again, I know of no other country doing anything similar, no matter what the motivation might be.

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#242 Re: Consequences of Trump's Win - 4

Postby Brooklyn Bridge » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:09 am

Oh, dear, Gaybutton. I did answer your challenge. Careful diplomacy. Just like the past three decades and three administrations. Hard to do with a castrated State Department and an idiot president. America doesn't even have an ambassador to South Korea!

There is no alternative. To slow, deliberate, sensitive negotiation.

I would put everything on the table, including the military exercises. I would try to get inspectors into North Korea.

I would give up any hope of getting NK to abandon nuclear weapons.

I would stop talking tough.

I would try to restart the 6 Power talks. They had limited success.

I would try to set up a Summit between the American and South Korean leaders.

If I were you, Gaybutton, I would acquaint myself with the history of attempts to deal with this problem, of which you seem to not know very much.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/arti ... -timeline/

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#243 Re: Consequences of Trump's Win - 4

Postby Gaybutton » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:16 am

Brooklyn Bridge wrote:which you seem to not know very much.

Don't be so sure about that - or underestimating what I do and do not know.

I know not “seems.”
- Hamlet

I'm glad you finally responded to the "challenge." You may be surprised that I agree with every word of it.

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#244 Re: Consequences of Trump's Win - 4

Postby Brooklyn Bridge » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:19 am

Russia defeated the Nazis -- at an enormous cost in blood and treasure. That's just history.

Truman fired up the cold war. He was an ignorant haberdasher who had no idea what he was doing.

Instead of offending Stalin, he should have reached out. Harry Hopkins would have, but he was denied the nomination thanks to political chicanery and FDR's illness.

The Marshall Plan was brilliant, but it was way more than charity. American corporations reaped the profits.

Too bad we didn't execute a Marshall Plan in South East Asia or the Middle East. Instead we sided with corrupt tyrants and dropped bombs. But the Europeans were white. Reminds me of the recent hurricanes.

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#245 Re: Consequences of Trump's Win - 4

Postby Brooklyn Bridge » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:20 am

I'm glad we agree, GB. There is hope for the world :)

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#246 Re: Consequences of Trump's Win - 4

Postby Brooklyn Bridge » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:28 am

I am but mad north-north-west. When the wind is southerly, I know a hawk from a handsaw.

2.2

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#247 Re: Consequences of Trump's Win - 4

Postby firecat69 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:39 am

fountainhall wrote: Yes, the USA has done great good. But that has to be balanced with the realism that it has rarely acted merely for the good of others.

Somehow you always come back to the same argument that America just did what was good for itself. Well that is just natural. You have to act in your own interests first or you will lose the ability to act in anyone's interest. Please tell me when China has acted in anyone's interest other then their own. You completely ignored my comment about China being a joke as far as doing any good in the world. They never act in anyone's interest other then their own.

Now the 2nd biggest economy in the world and please point out all the good things they are doing for anyone except themselves. And the themselves are a very small % of the population and if anyone complains they throw them in jail. They are an Autocratic government that allows no dissent and so far the only thing you can point to in their favor is they have not been too imperialistic. (Yet) And by the way some could make a case for China being a Modern Imperialist country because of their Billions in thefts of the worlds Intellectual properties.

Brooklyn Bridge's arguments are completely idiotic. If you listened to his rationale, you would think the US was worse then Germany, Soviet Union, Japan etc.

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#248 Re: Consequences of Trump's Win - 4

Postby fountainhall » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:43 am

Gaybutton wrote:The Soviets beat the western allies to Berlin because Eisenhower permitted it and agreed to virtually give Berlin to Stalin.

Is that in fact correct? The Soviets certainly arrived first but my understanding is that at the Yalta Conference in February 1945 it was agreed to divide Germany into four zones - and that included Berlin.

Gaybutton wrote:Unfortunately, Stalin did not keep his agreements.

Agreed. But then Stalin had been shafted big time by Hitler. And near the end of the war there was deep distrust in the west of Stalin and Soviet objectives. Abrogation of agreements would have been considered at the very least a possibility.

After the conference, Churchill wrote to Roosevelt that ‘The Soviet Union has become a danger to the free world.

http://www.johndclare.net/cold_war4.htm

Gaybutton wrote:As for the USA keeping the Soviets at bay, that could have been done without the Marshall Plan.

The Soviets had 4.5 million troops in a devastated Europe and more in reserve. The USA had 3 million and more that could be deployed from the Asian theatre. Those of Britain and France were all but exhausted from more years of war. I suppose it might have been possible for the US troops to hold back the Soviet forces, but given the Soviets momentum, superior strength, Stalin's greed and the time taken to move those Asian forces into Europe, I suspect Stalin would have progressed a good bit further before some form of stalemate developed.

But that is mere conjecture. We can never know what might have happened and so I'll just agree to differ.

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#249 Re: Consequences of Trump's Win - 4

Postby Gaybutton » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:56 am

fountainhall wrote:
Gaybutton wrote:The Soviets beat the western allies to Berlin because Eisenhower permitted it and agreed to virtually give Berlin to Stalin.

Is that in fact correct? The Soviets certainly arrived first but my understanding is that at the Yalta Conference in February 1945 it was agreed to divide Germany into four zones - and that included Berlin.

President Franklin Delano Roosevelt died at Warm Springs, Ga., on April 12.

On that day or the next (the record is not clear) it became known that Gen. Dwight Eisenhower had ordered the armies under his command to stand on the Elbe River. They were forbidden to push on to Berlin.

https://www.csmonitor.com/1995/0410/10091.html

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#250 Re: Consequences of Trump's Win - 4

Postby fountainhall » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:59 am

firecat69 wrote:Please tell me when China has acted in anyones interest other then their own. You completely ignored my comment about China being a joke as far as doing any good in the world.

You need to know a little more of your history of China. At the start of the Asian Economic Crisis, this paper was written. It is headed "China's Response to the Asian Financial Crisis: Implications for US Economic Interests."

The global financial crisis contributed to a slowdown in the growth of the Chinese economy in 1998, especially its export sector, although it fared better than most of its East Asian neighbors, many of whom fell into recession. However, many analysts have expressed concern that a deepening of the global financial crisis may induce China to devalue its currency, the yuan, in order to stimulate export growth. Such a move could lead to a new destabilizing round of currency devaluations throughout East Asia, which would further depress U.S. exports to the region. In addition, it would make Chinese products cheaper in U.S. markets and thus exacerbate the U.S. trade deficit with China.

http://congressionalresearch.com/98-220 ... +INTERESTS

It was very much in China's interest to devalue. It promised the world it would not - and it did not, whereas every other Asian currency devalued by at least 20% and more (apart from Hong Kong whose currency remained linked to the US$ - and that directly led to Hong Kong's worst recession since World War 2).

The Chinese Yuan was then at around ¥8.31 to US$1. The rate now is around ¥6.6 to US$1 - an upward valuation of the Yuan of around 20%.


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