What happened to North Korea?

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fountainhall

Re: What happened to North Korea?

Post by fountainhall »

Joachim wrote:With all due respect , it is a total bullshit.
And with similar respect, your argument is mostly total bullshit. Whatever the outcome of the present situation, China will never permit South Korea to have nukes. And Japan's constitution does not permit it. But your scenario does throw up one interesting little factoid that has been more or less missing from the discussion.

Like it or not, the USA elected - without pressure from any other country as far as I am aware - to protect South Korea, Japan and most of the rest of Asia with its nuclear umbrella. There are firm, fully ratified treaties in place to that effect. But now that there is talk about Kim 3's inter-ballisitc missiles being able to hit the USA sooner rather than later, suddenly the desire to fulfil its treaty obligations seems to be wavering. China gave no such assurances, Russia gave no such assurances. The USA did. If the USA under Trump is now regarded internationally as a bit of a laughing stock, unilateral abrogation of those treaties would make it an international pariah.

Firecat69 is totally correct. China is not going to lift more than a little finger to help solve the problem. It will do what it is in China's interest to do. And having a unified Korean peninsula with American defences is way off Beijing's agenda. Kim's missiles will not be pointed at Beijing or Shanghai. If the USA does not like that fact, what is it going to do? Sanctions against China? What sanctions? What retaliation? China holds roughly $1.3 trillion of US debt. That can cushion some sanctions. It can also create more than a bit of turmoil on foreign exchange and stock markets if dropped in the right place at the right time.

The USA created the problem. The USA exacerbated the problem by unilaterally breaking a treaty and placing nukes in South Korea for more than 3 decades thereby encouraging Kim 1 to start on a similar nuclear programme. With both North and South as puppets in the Cold War, this was inevitable with help from the Soviets. The USA under Bush 2 and Obama failed to grasp the nettle and left the mess to the next Presidents. If it takes military action in North Korea which results in mega deaths in other parts of Asia to save deaths in Seattle or Los Angeles, it will again have failed to honour its treaties.

It's one hell of a problem. But it is very largely one of America's making. And before going further, let's remember that nukes are just part of the problem. The North has very large stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons. How are those to be taken out?
firecat69

Re: What happened to North Korea?

Post by firecat69 »

I just watched Sen Dianne Feinstein who is the leading Democrat on the Select Intelligence Committee on MSNBC. She was asked about Lindsey Graham Sen from South Carolina commenting this morning on the Today show that their is a military solution for N Korea.

Feinstein suggested that he take the time to brought up to speed by Gen. Dunford and get the proper briefings from the Intelligence committees.

She flat stated there is no Military Solution and the Pentagon knows it. That was all she could say because everything else is classified.

But that is not news because all the experts have been telling the White House for years that there is no military solution. Period!
Joachim

Re: What happened to North Korea?

Post by Joachim »

fountainhall wrote:
Joachim wrote:With all due respect , it is a total bullshit.
And with similar respect, your argument is mostly total bullshit.
And what China is going to do about that? Start nuclear war? If US and South Korea decide to do that, there is nothing China can do. The whole problem is not of US making as you say. This is total bullshit. North Korea (with China nod) started Korean war and US were forced to defend South Korea.

Militarization of North Korea forced US and South Korea to take the adequate response. I am not surprised your Anti-American response (you are Anti-American all the way). It is quite amazing to see how supportive you are of Kim's gang and thugs from Russia. You show your colors more and more.
What I suggested is totally realistic scenario. What is needed is agreement between US, South Korea and Japan. Nobody else will be able to do anything. And if Americans withdraw from South Korea, I do not see why North Korea should start the war (if they are such doves as they say).

With nuclear weapons neither Japan, nor South Korea need US umbrella. And do not worry, America is pariah only in your sick dreams. For your information: America is shining beacon on the hill: always was, is and will be. My advice: stop your Anti-American bullshit. I would be surprised if it will be appreciated on this message board where majority are Americans.
Joachim

Re: What happened to North Korea?

Post by Joachim »

Instead of moving nuclear submarines back and forth,Trump needs to take decisive action in Venezuela. Perhaps, jointly with Columbia, Argentina and others. Trump needs a win. Here is his chance to get a win in the country rich with oil and help Venezuelan people to get rid of Marxist thugs in there.
firecat69

Re: What happened to North Korea?

Post by firecat69 »

Over time history gets massaged , depending on who is telling the story and the writers point of view. What happened appears to be much more complicated than myself or anyone here can understand. It appears to me there are many who bear responsibility of the current mess and it will take many to get us out of the mess.

Trump is certainly not the one to do it , but neither will the past Presidents who punted the problem to the next president. I'm pretty sure Trump does not have the brain, instincts or comprehension to understand the mess he now has. Hopefully James Mattis does.

http://www.justrememberthepast.com/caus ... n-war.html
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Gaybutton
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Re: What happened to North Korea?

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fountainhall

Re: What happened to North Korea?

Post by fountainhall »

Joachim wrote:The whole problem is not of US making as you say. This is total bullshit. North Korea (with China nod) started Korean war and US were forced to defend South Korea.
You really like the word "bullshit", Joachim, and I have followed your example. Best first to get facts straight, though. China did not start or play any role in starting the Korean War. China was way too busy getting its massive and chaotic country reorganised internally after virtually 150 years of chaos. As all history dictates, China had absolutely zero desire to get involved in an external crisis. Russia prodded the North, not China.

The war started because America placed a dictator in South Korea, a man it felt it could manipulate. When the North forces crossed the wholly arbitrary line that two ignorant clerks at the Potsdam Conference had determined would be the boundary between the two Koreas, Rhee begged for help. It then took the USA several days to react, by which time the North's forces had advanced well into the South. The US had promised to protect the South, but Washington had left the type and degree of that help unresolved. Hence the delay. Washington's fault!

After the North had more or less conquered the entire country, MacArthur and new troops arrived. They fought the North forces right back up the Peninsula as far as the Yalu River. Only at that point, several months after the start, did China became involved. Beijing feared an invasion of its own territory. Remember, at that time there was much angst in Washington about how "Who lost China?" amongst the administration and many lawmakers. Helping Chiang Kai-shek return to defeat Mao was also being openly discussed. China entered the war to protect its own interests and its own territory.

As Dean Acheson the Secretary of State was later to say -
“If the best minds in the world had set out to find us the worst possible location in the world to fight this damnable war, the unanimous choice would have been Korea.”
Joachim wrote:My advice: stop your Anti-American bullshit. I would be surprised if it will be appreciated on this message board where majority are Americans.
So you expect every poster here to toe the American line? I am not anti-American but I will not toe any country's line, including my own. I have my own views honed over many decades. I have great admiration for America and its peoples. I have tremendous admiration for many of its actions, not least the Marshall plan to put Europe back on its feet after World War II. But throughout much of my life, I have had precious little admiration for much of its leadership and especially the decisions it has made as it affects this part of the world since then, a region I happen to know more than quite well. When were you last in Korea? How many times have you been there? I have been there several dozen times, including during Martial Law when you could be shot if you were on the streets between midnight and 6:00 am.

How much do you know about Nixon's secret undeclared war in Cambodia and how that gave rise to power of the Khmer Rouge? What about the monstrous CIA slaughter in Laos? How about the 580,000 bombing missions - one every 8 minutes for 9 whole years on that tiny blighted country? How about the 80 million mostly cluster bombs that failed to explode? How about the fact that 25% of Lao villages today still contain unexploded bombs? Since the end of hostilities, more than 20,000 innocent Laos have been killed and maimed by those bombs, mostly children. Washington's fault!

The US dropped more tonnage on tiny Laos than it did everywhere in the whole of World War II. Why will it not spend the money to clean up this toxic mess it left? That bombing campaign cost the USA $13.3 million PER DAY for NINE YEARS in 2013 dollars. In the last 24 years, it has spent a total of JUST $118 million in cleaning up America’s mess. That, Joachim, amounts to less than 10 days of the 9 years of bombing! LESS THAN 10 DAYS! And America is a shining beacon on the hill? Tell that to the parents of those murdered and maimed children. In today's world your comment with respect is very largely bullshit!
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Re: What happened to North Korea?

Post by Gaybutton »

Gentlemen, some of you are starting yet again to get personal with each other. I don't know how many more times I'll have to remind people that on this board I will not tolerate getting personal with each other.

If you can't post without getting personal about it, then don't post - unless you want to see your post deleted.

Stick to the issues themselves and there won't be a problem.
fountainhall

Re: What happened to North Korea?

Post by fountainhall »

Finally a reasoned position and a great deal of sense from Rex Tillerson on both North Korea and China. Trump, Lindsay Graham and others should now shut up and let Tillerson and the State Department do the job they are paid to do.
firecat69

Re: What happened to North Korea?

Post by firecat69 »

I'm a 71 year old American and have travelled all over the world. Last count 85 countries. I think the USA has done a lot of good in the world , but along the way they have made some outrageous mistakes . When you are the shining light on the hill , you are asked to intervene in many things, some of which the reply should be no thanks.

The steps a country takes still revolve around not only the people in charge at the time but the people who are reporting to them. First anyone who thinks that the USA first does not act in its own interest , no matter where they intervene is living in LaLa land. There are places all over the world where the US Government does not intervene , simply because there is no advantage . Lots of lip service to some of those places but no action.

However nobody can question the generosity of Americans when things such as natural disasters occur. In fact most of the rest of the world should be embarrassed how pitiful their responses are vs their ability to contribute.

I find absolutely no problem with comments made by FH and anyone who does just really does not have a deep historical knowledge of the US .

I speed read some of the links FH provides , just because as I have said before . Everybody who writes an article has an ox to gore. All you can do is read multiple sources on the same subject and try to find what everybody agrees on. Then the rest of it is up for debate.

There is not a single respected International Relations expert in the world who thinks China will help. They will not which is why the only possibility is to sit down with Kim and try to structure an agreement everyone can live with.

A bunch of Presidents have failed to do that and just imagine if Tillerson and others can make a hero out of Trump by structuring a deal.

He will be able to take credit for something his pea brain does not even begin to understand. That is till better then all the horrible alternatives.
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