What happened to North Korea?

Dodger
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#121 Re: What happened to North Korea?

Postby Dodger » Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:09 pm

fountainhall wrote:It's counterproductive because it now makes it even more difficult to get Km to the table - and that is what Kim wants.

I wonder if a change in strategy is at work here. Trumps remarks at the U.N. were scripted and Rex Tillerson who was sitting in the background didn't flinch.

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#122 Re: What happened to North Korea?

Postby fountainhall » Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:44 pm

I cannot for one minute believe Tillerson had any hand in that speech or approved os its content. It is totally unlike his style and against everything diplomacy stands for.

All the media I have seen claim it was mostly written by Bannon and Gorka before they left the White House. Naturally the remaining White House staffers disagree. It certainly had strong undertones of both those jerks. But Tillerson would certainly not approve about "Rocket Man" and totally destroying a country. No way! Here's one source - Newsweek.

http://www.newsweek.com/steve-bannon-tr ... rka-669140

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#123 Re: What happened to North Korea?

Postby Dodger » Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:16 pm

I'm not sure yet.

Something else is at play here.

The majority of Democrats, Republicans and Independents seemed to support Trumps comments, while indicating that the "Rocket Man" dub was possibly a bit much, but all-in-all, his comments seemed to win favor with both sides of the isle as well as public opinion. Evan the Chinese came out and supplemented their sanctions against N. Korea knowing Trump's position on this just prior to Trumps address at the U.N. which threw everyone a curve. The past 4 (or more) Presidents have been attempting to bring the Kim's to the table through countless diplomatic measures with absolutely no results. It's time to move to another chapter.

A lot of focus seems to be on the "Rocket Man" bit, but I actually think that the remarks that Trump made on the world stage regarding the countless atrocities against the people of N. Korea, the killing of his own family members, etc., had a much bigger impact on Kim than anything else. Frankly, I'm glad we have started to talk about this publicly...on a global stage. Will Kim commit suicide by launching missiles at N. Korea because he was called "Rocket Man"? The answer is no. Will his Generals start to lose confidence in him when he becomes the laughing stock of the media and they don't have enough money left to light their cigars? Maybe so. Maybe that's the strategy.

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#124 Re: What happened to North Korea?

Postby fountainhall » Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:51 pm

I don't believe anything Trump said had any effect on Kim and his coterie of generals. I suspect they were probably delighted, if only because it gave them another opportunity to throw insults and yet more nuclear threats back at the USA.

I also think the UN members were less concerned about the "rocket man" episode. That was just Trump being the petulant little boy Trump complaining about one of his toys which wasn't working. They were also not that shocked about Kim's other antics if only because these have all been given a great deal of publicity worldwide - just as those atrocities of the earlier Kims had been. They may be new to Trump, but not to the rest of the civilised world.

I do believe, though, they were vastly more concerned about his threat to liquidate an entire country. No one has ever come near to saying that at the UN before and it genuinely shocked most who heard the speech. It was an outrageous claim to make and a very stupid one. I'm certain it also had absolutely no effect whatever in Pyongyang. Kim's generals are not going to do a von Stauffenberg, There will be no Valkyrie in Pyongyang.

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#125 Re: What happened to North Korea?

Postby Captain Kirk » Sun Sep 24, 2017 2:03 am

We have two sides who hold diametrically opposed positions. Can only finish one of two ways.
1. war with NK
2. Allow NK to achieve the nuclear position they seek.

Personally I believe Un has to be stopped.

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#126 Re: What happened to North Korea?

Postby Dodger » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:06 am

fountainhall wrote:I suspect they were probably delighted, if only because it gave them another opportunity to throw insults and yet more nuclear threats back at the USA.

Again, not sure.

Kim was throwing insults and threats long before Trump took office and I seriously doubt that his generals are particularly delighted with the prospect of having their families blown to pieces in the event of a war with the U.S. I think it's much more likely that Kim (and his generals) are extremely concerned about the way this thing is unfolding especially with China slipping on the ice. As long as the U.S. stands firm on its position that N. Korea cannot be a nuclear state - then Kim simply can't win. There simply isn't anything to negotiate. There is no diplomatic solution.

I know this is going to sound crazy, but if I were Kim I would be more worried about the Chinese than the U.S. right now. China would be much better off if they attacked and defeated N. Korea than having the US and S. Korea ruling the peninsula. Just a thought.

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#127 Re: What happened to North Korea?

Postby Gaybutton » Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:41 am

North Korea's Foreign Minister, Ri Yong Ho, UN speech in response to Trump's UN speech:


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#128 Re: What happened to North Korea?

Postby fountainhall » Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:19 am

Dodger wrote:I seriously doubt that his generals are particularly delighted with the prospect of having their families blown to pieces in the event of a war with the U.S. I think it's much more likely that Kim (and his generals) are extremely concerned about the way this thing is unfolding especially with China slipping on the ice. As long as the U.S. stands firm on its position that N. Korea cannot be a nuclear state - then Kim simply can't win. There simply isn't anything to negotiate. There is no diplomatic solution

Sorry Dodger, but I just cannot agree. You seem to think there is or could be a rift between Kim and his generals. I don't believe there is or will be. I completely agree they don't want to be wiped off the face of the map. But then I don't believe it will come to that. We are seeing a huge amount of bluster and hot air. But Kim does not want war and is not so much of an idiot he believes he might win one. But then he does not trust the USA and any promises it will make. We have spoken before about the examples he has of Libya, Iraq and now Iran. Kin is not going to let that happen to him.

The people who know the North better than anyone are the South Koreans. Isn't it odd that the people of Seoul remains only fractionally less calm than they have been for decades whilst it the US administration that is acting like a hen on a hot girdle on this issue? Yes, it is serious. And yes, it can become deadly serious. That's where diplomacy comes in. As French President Macron said last week, diplomacy is not the USA using provocative language.

But you are about to start your holiday. Don't worry about Incheon airport. It'll still be there when you transfer on your way here - and when you return. Enjoy Thailand!

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#129 Re: What happened to North Korea?

Postby aussie » Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:40 pm

Dodger wrote:China would be much better off if they attacked and defeated N. Korea than having the US and S. Korea ruling the peninsula. Just a thought.

I agree and this has been my thinking the past few weeks. Does it really matter if China gains some extra real estate? Imagine the tourism potential of this area. I do not see any other solution. Beijing needs to act fast, this is getting out of control.

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#130 Re: What happened to North Korea?

Postby Gaybutton » Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:06 pm

aussie wrote:Does it really matter if China gains some extra real estate?

Would China even want that real estate? They'd be stuck with a population full of brainwashed people, starving, and no infrastructure. It would cost China a fortune to get North Korea up and running like a normal country.

I suppose China could declare the entirety of North Korea a national park and be done with it . . .


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