Retirement visa news - and it's not good

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fountainhall

Re: Retirement visa news - and it's not good

Post by fountainhall »

James the First wrote:To wrap one's mind around the unfairness of how a kid on a one year teaching visa in a Thai school "is here legally" being paid 30,000 baht a month verses ourselves will only give a headache, but never a logical answer. So, I have learned to throw logic out the window and concentrate on the simplest path to what they want
I agree with a lot of James the First's comments. I am sure few if any readers of this forum have much clue about Thai logic. Even after decades of visiting and 17 of living here, I certainly haven't. In fact, I only know one foreigner who does - but he and his father were both born here and he runs a major Thai company.
James the First wrote:Having 800K in a bank account, $25,000, is a sane and prudent thing when you might be rushed off to hospital for any emergency. If you die with an unpaid medical bill and no assets you are a drain on the health care system everyone else pays for. Your nonpayment makes it harder on the next farang who is admitted for an emergency. Friends who work in hospitals are amazed that so many Europeans, even on vacation, arrive at a hospital emergency without any means to pay for treatment. I do not blame the Thais for this.
Another fair point. I think many of us knew or read about a regular contributor to the various Thai chat forums who for whatever reason was not insured, got a particular type of cancer, was thrilled when he was "cured" when in fact he was only in remission. That treatment had more or less wiped out his savings. When the cancer returned he had no funds for further hospital treatment. He died in the home of friends who looked after him. (Apologies to his friends if I have that slightly wrong). He did one major favour to readers, however, in informing them that Bangkok's Chulalongkorn Hospital, being a teaching hospital, is a lot cheaper than most others.

But I am surprised that James The First assumes the Bt. 800K is partly to cover hospitalisation - or is that merely an example?. I have never heard it before. I also find it somewhat hard to believe given that medical inflation has been rising very significantly over the last. say. ten years but the Bt. 800K requirement has not changed. Anyone requiring open heart surgery, treatment for a cerebral haemorrhage or a major form of cancer - all illnesses more likely to hit those over 50 - is unlikely now to come about of hospital without a bill for less than Bt. 800K I'd have thought.

As he says, anyone over 65 is unlikely to be eligible for any type of insurance - although I know of one farang who obtained reasonable cover from a Thai Insurance Company when he was 67. Rather than looking to continue any scheme which is supposed to include a certain medical insurance element, surely it would be better (more logical???) to reduce the annual payment but insist that in future retirees are covered - as I assume most presently are - by a recognised medical insurance plan? Of course, if the insurance is from a Thai company Immigration officials can read it. If from an overseas insurer, I suppose we're back to the income letter shambles again - who can prove it is genuine?

In general, though, I fail to understand how anyone can get away with travelling to any country without a degree of medical insurance - even just on holiday. I am surprised international bodies like IATA and the International Union of Travel Organisations do not mandate this. Members of most EU countries travelling within the EU are OK because they have reciprocal heath benefits. I expect a great many Brit retired expats presently living in cheaper and more pleasant retirement countries like Spain and Portugal are likely to be in deep financial trouble once Brexit takes effect. They depend on free local healthcare and cheap flights back to the UK if they require longer term care. Many will be over 65 and I doubt if most bothered with health insurance. If not, I assume the property markets in parts of those countries will soon crash with a mass exodus. Might the market in Pattaya slump even more in the near future?
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Re: Retirement visa news - and it's not good

Post by Gaybutton »

fountainhall wrote:Another fair point.
While many of the points are valid and fair, once again we're getting way off topic. Let's keep this topic limited to information about the retirement visa. Please feel free to go off on tangents by starting new topics.
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Re: Retirement visa news - and it's not good

Post by richsilver »

I just received this from Democrats Abroad Thailand. It definitely seems to contradict the information Gaybutton was given regarding monthly income vs 800,000 baht in a Thai bank. TIT.
_____________________________________

Dear Americans Abroad in Thailand,

Happy belated Thanksgiving, I hope you all had a chance to enjoy the holiday with family and friends.

As a service to our members and their American friends, DA Thailand is providing a report compiled by our DAT Vice-Chair Gary Suwannarat, who recently attended a town hall organized on November 20, 2018, by the US Consulate in Chiang Mai.

Please note that this is provided to alert members to upcoming changes but does not constitute legal advice; questions about your particular situation and circumstances should be addressed to Thai Immigration officers or to immigration lawyers.

This affects those living in Thailand on retirement visas. US Consular Offices (as well as those of the UK and Australia) will no longer notarize income certifications after December 31, 2018.

Gary Suwannarat’s report is as follows:

Chiang Mai US Consul General Jennifer Harhigh and overall Thailand Consul General Timothy Scherer spoke to some 200 Americans concerned about this upcoming change in income certification procedures for Americans applying for retirement visas, or renewal of an expiring retirement visa. This impacts many of the estimated 70,000-75,000 Americans on long-term visas in Thailand, some 20,000 of whom are served by the Chiang Mai Consulate, covering the CM Consular District from Chiang Rai in the north to Pichit, Pitasanuloke and Tak in the south.

Scherer indicated that there is no change in Thai law. However, as part of a global review of US consular operations, it was found that US consular offices in Thailand issue an unusually high number of income affidavits. This was raised in consular dialogue with Thai authorities, who then realized that the notarized affidavit affirms only that the named citizen appeared before a US Consular officer, but does not constitute proof of income, as required by Thai law as detailed in Police Order 777/2551, which governs visa approvals. (See partial translated text below.) Similar changes are reported regarding the UK and Australia, and in the offing for citizens of other countries who have significant populations of retired persons living in Thailand.

The US Embassy and the Immigration Division held discussions regarding how to ease the transition to new regulations, resulting in the Thai Immigration Division extending the validity of notarized income certification for 6 months from date of notarization. Notarization obtained by December 31, 2018 will be accepted until end-June, 2019. (Note: the Consular calendar in Chiang Mai is filling up fast.)

Follow-up comments indicated that the Chiang Mai Immigration Office earlier this year instituted a requirement of proof of income, supporting the Consular-notarized income affidavit. (Note: My contact with Chiang Mai Immigration officials indicates that they want both the Consulate notarization and back-up documentation.) Scherer acknowledged that Immigration Offices around Thailand exercise discretion in applying regulations, so there may be some inconsistencies.

One commenter said he had asked his US bank to provide a statement which summed his variable income for the year, reported as average monthly income, which was accepted for retirement visa purposes. Scherer stressed the importance of obtaining bank documents that, like this case, indicate as clearly as possible that income meets the Thai criteria.
Scherer further indicated that Embassy officials are working with Thai Immigration officials to familiarize them with financial reporting formats of the Social Security Administration, Veterans Affairs and major firms managing IRAs. The value of using standard income and retirement income reports (1099 and 1099-R) was mentioned.

Audience members applauded the suggestion that the Embassy work with the government to get acceptance of forms with personal identifying information not required for visa purposes redacted or blacked out as protection against identity theft.

The "combination" method (including both monthly income and Thai bank deposits) will still be accepted for justification of individual retirement visa extensions. For spousal visa extensions, inquire of Thai Immigration authorities or an Immigration lawyer.

Questions and discussion indicated that ANY source of income could be considered, not just pension income. In meetings with Thai Immigration, the U.S. officials have stressed that Americans have many sources of income (many not at regular intervals) to support themselves in retirement -- rental income, investments, withdrawals from trusts, and much more in additional to traditional government pensions like SS and VA. There was one report of someone in Chiang Mai receiving income at irregular intervals, so he printed out all deposits to his U.S. bank account over the course of a year and showed Thai immigration how it was more than 800,000 baht a year and this was accepted.

There was concern from several expat-expat married couples who each have been maintaining individual retirement visas, where one receives less than 65,000 baht and the other more than 65,000 baht, but the total exceeded 130,000 baht. Would it be possible for the wife to obtain a dependent or "family" visa? U.S. officials were unable to answer this question about how Thai immigration will handle dependent visas going forward. Again, speak to a Thai Immigration official or immigration lawyer.

Thai Police Order 777/255: Unofficial translation (available online):

Retirement visa application requires proof of income of not less than 65,000/month OR
Thai bank account deposit of baht 800,000 at least 2 months prior to INITIALLY applying for a retirement visa; at least 3 months prior to application for retirement visa renewal OR
Annual income plus bank account deposit totaling not less than baht 800,000 as of the filing date for retirement visa.

Thank you to Gary for volunteering to go to the meeting and file this report to share with the DAT membership. So, to summarize, the only real advice that DAT can provide to you is the following:

Get the income affirmation notarized by the Embassy before year end if your visa expires before June 30, 3019. (Note that appointment slots at the consulate are filling up fast.)
Ensure others you know are also made aware of these changes.
For advice about specific cases, either talk to a Thai Immigration officer or an immigration lawyer

I hope that this is helpful to our members who have retired in Thailand on a retirement visa and will be affected by this situation.

With best wishes,

Phil Robertson
Chairperson, Democrats Abroad Thailand (DAT)
Email: [email protected]

Democrats Abroad Thailand
http://www.democratsabroad.org/
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Re: Retirement visa news - and it's not good

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richsilver wrote:It definitely seems to contradict the information Gaybutton was given regarding monthly income vs 800,000 baht in a Thai bank.
Let's hope so. It's encouraging, for sure. That notice is the first credible evidence I've seen that convinces me immigration is going to at least accept something as proof of income. Now we'll have to see what it is and whether there is some sort of standard that will apply to all the Thai immigration offices.

Unfortunately that is not going to help people who have been lying about their income and cannot actually meet the minimum or have 800,000 baht in a Thai bank account for three months. I believe the reason for this whole brouhaha in the first place is because Thailand wants retirees who can and do comply with their immigration laws, not people who cheat.

My suggestion is if you can prove at least 65,000 baht per month income, bring everything you've got when you apply for the retirement visa and hope for the best.

That's what I'm going to do, but until my documentation is actually accepted and my retirement visa renewal is in my hand I'm also going to make damned sure I can comply with the 800,000 baht rule. To me, that is the safe side - and the safe side is the side I like to be on.

When applying for the retirement visa with documentation other than the embassy affidavit or 800,000 baht in a Thai bank, please start letting us know what is and is not being accepted as proof of income, along with letting us know which immigration office you dealt with.
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Re: Retirement visa news - and it's not good

Post by Gaybutton »

I'm not sure what to make of this, but my take on the following article is the 800,000 baht requirement is here to stay. There is no mention in the article of the 65,000 baht per month or means of proving it.

If the article is correct and complete, my interpretation of it is once immigration will no longer accept income affidavits, then for the retirement visa it will be 800,000 baht in a Thai bank account for at least three months or nothing. In other words, ability to prove a 65,000 baht income per month, no matter how you do it, will not be accepted.

I hope my interpretation is wrong, but as usual it is just too soon to know one way or the other.
A law stipulates that foreigners who want to prolong their stay in Thailand need to have at least 800,000 baht in their bank accounts.
_________________________________________________________

Visa Crackdown to Stay

'Big Joke' unrepentant about tactics, despite police racism claims

December 16, 2018

by Wassayos Ngamkham

Immigration Bureau chief Surachate Hakparn admits frequent crackdowns on suspects who live in Thailand illegally have made other foreigners feel uncomfortable, but the bureau's success in carrying out the campaign outweighs this concern.

"Today the number of foreigners who overstay their visas is zero," Pol Lt Gen Surachate said, referring to the outcome of strict measures against the wrongdoers.

"I want to keep this number at zero."

Pol Lt Gen Surachate is aware that attempts to separate good and bad foreigners may have some unpleasant impacts, especially on those who live and work in Thailand legally.

However, Pol Lt Gen Surachate insisted authorities need to "expel bad guys and have only good ones stay." The so-called "X-ray campaign", in which police inspect a wide range of venues from small rented houses and factories to luxury hotels, looking for errant foreigners, has helped the government reach its goal.

An expat in Thailand, who asked not to be named, said: "The immigration police pick on all the black people. No problem if you're white. They'll leave you alone. They just think all black people are bad."

The immigration bureau chief, however, claimed that a lot of visitors from certain African countries overstay and also commit crimes in Thailand.

Another foreigner, who also asked not to be named, said his friends seeking asylum were also affected by the operations. Some have been detained.

Since the campaign started in July last year, officers have conducted 39 operations in 3,755 target areas across the country as of the end of November.

Several thousand suspected wrongdoers, mostly overstaying their visas, were arrested and sent back to their countries. Information on asylum seekers was not revealed.

In October alone this year, police arrested more than 40,000 suspects. Many of them were blacklisted and prohibited from re-entering Thailand.

Pol Lt Gen Surachate attributed the success largely to complaints from owners of accommodation as well as crackdowns on brokers who help foreigners renew their visas illegally.

Apartment owners contact police when their number of foreign guests increases unusually.

One condominium has so many foreigners that "every floor was full of foreigners," Pol Lt Gen Surachate said.

An inspection at the property found many of the guests were living illegally while others failed to inform the Immigration Bureau of their addresses, which violates Section 38 of the Immigration Act.

By law, foreigners are required to report to authorities within 24 hours after they check in to their accommodation.

Usually, hotels will do the job for them, but in case they have to report to authorities themselves, they must contact the Immigration Bureau or police who oversee areas where they stay.

It is an important law but may be easily ignored even by those who have never intended to commit any wrongdoing, Pol Lt Gen Surachate said, adding many bosses and their staff have no knowledge of this legal requirement.

A raid on a leading construction company put the spotlight on the problem. The migrant workers there possessed work permits, but they failed to report their addresses to police.

"We had to arrest and fine them 5,000 baht each," Pol Lt Gen Surachate said.

Foreigners who work in Thailand need to be careful not to overstay their visas.

Usually, authorities will issue a warning letter, asking them to renew their visas which allow for a 90-day stay. If they fail to show up, they will be considered as overstaying their visas and will be subject to arrest, he said.

The visa issue is also a problem when foreigners are lured into renewing their visas via brokers. Checks by police found their services involve many irregularities, involving forging documents that certify applicants' financial status and false claims of their money records.

A law stipulates that foreigners who want to prolong their stay in Thailand need to have at least 800,000 baht in their bank accounts.

This is exploited by brokers who resort to trickery to make officers believe that the visa renewal applicants have enough money to pay for their living expenses.

They transfer money to their clients' bank accounts in the morning to have the balance checked by officers and quickly withdraw it in the evening once the financial "proof" has been provided, Pol Lt Gen Surachate said.

It is not such a serious matter if their clients are decent people, but some might be criminals, he said. He recommended foreigners who need help to contact his agency directly.

If they want a more technological channel, they can contact police through the LINE app, which has the handle "immigration".

The software allows foreigners to give their addresses and apply for visa renewals online without a need to travel to the Immigration Bureau.

With all these facilities available, if foreigners still rely on illegal means and opt to stay in the country secretly, "we'll treat them as ill-intentioned people and they'll face arrest," Pol Lt Gen Surachate said.

The X-Ray Outlaw Foreigner campaign will stay in place, and even foreigners with refugee status will be carefully regulated, he added.

Police will keep a close watch on their number and the period they are allowed to stay here by working more closely with the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, he said.

Story and photos: https://www.bangkokpost.com/news/specia ... wn-to-stay
gera

Re: Retirement visa news - and it's not good

Post by gera »

My understanding that at least in Pattaya I cannot report my address online (even if I stay in my own condo). I was told in Immigration only Thai can do it.
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Re: Retirement visa news - and it's not good

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gera wrote:My understanding that at least in Pattaya I cannot report my address online (even if I stay in my own condo). I was told in Immigration only Thai can do it.
That is part of the reason why everything is so confusing right now. The article says one thing and immigration says another. I'm just going to continue personally going to immigration to do whatever I need to do.
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Re: Retirement visa news - and it's not good

Post by 2lz2p »

This morning from 10am to 11am on Pattaya fm 103, their guest was Tim Sharrer (sp?) who is the Consul General for the US Embassy in Bangkok - he heads up all Visa and consular services including the America Citizen Service (ACS) Unit. This was same Pattaya radio station that had the UK Embassy person on - YouTube.



A lot of banter and generalities took up the first half hour. Likewise the 2nd half hour except there was some "News" on the income letter. I imagine that FM 103 will provide it on YouTube for those that may be interested. The News appears to be:

-- They have met with both Immigration Headquarters including some of the regional offices (they met with Pattaya's Deputy Chief when they came down for their recent Outreach Visit).

-- The Income Affidavits being issued by the Embassy until end of December will be valid for 6 months from date of issue and can still be used by those renewing their extensions during that period. Today, they had made 500 appointment slots available for notarial service including the income letter (The ACS had previously announced last week that they were making 400 appointment slots available today - December 20, for Notarial Service including issuing the Income Affidavit)

-- They are aware that Immigration HQ in Bangkok has not yet issued instructions to regional offices on what documentation would be acceptable for proving you have 65,000 in monthly income, but expected it be sooner as their discussions about the income letters was last spring. He said there is a draft of the new Immigration Police Order, which he has seen, and he expects it to be sent out to Regional Offices in January.

-- A big issue with Thai Immigration is they don't want to have to review the various types of documents that could be involved and seem to be focusing on evidence of transferring funds into a Thai bank from outside Thailand as the solution.

Of course there are still unanswered questions, but hopefully once the new Police Order is issued, we will have a better idea of what will be acceptable -- and actually required when Immigration starts processing extensions based on the 65k monthly income requirement without an Embassy letter (as we all know, with the existing Police Orders providing guidance on all extensions of stay, each Regional Office can choose what specific documents they want to see, which can differ from what others want to see). Likewise, will they want to see a minimum of 65k per month or will they accept an average over a one year period of transfers.

I know there are more, but until Immigration issues the new rules and regional offices start processing them, it would be speculation and anybody's guess. Since I do my extension in July 2019 (yep, just missed that 6 month window), I am in hopes it will all be sorted by then.
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Re: Retirement visa news - and it's not good

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2lz2p wrote: big issue with Thai Immigration is they don't want to have to review the various types of documents that could be involved and seem to be focusing on evidence of transferring funds into a Thai bank from outside Thailand as the solution.
Well, I would certainly hate to be among those who insist they actually do their job. Thai law has not changed. According to Thai immigration law, proof of at least a 65,000 baht per month income is acceptable for the retirement visa and is still part of the law. Nothing in the law states that the only acceptable proof has to be income affidavits from embassies.

I don't understand the fuss. It seems to me to be so easy. All anyone would have to do is provide a Thai bank passbook showing 65,000 baht, or more, going into the account every month and perhaps a letter from the bank stating the source of the money. If it is acceptable to show a Thai bank passbook demonstrating that your account has 800,000 baht and it's been in there for at least 3 months, what's the big problem about showing a bank passbook demonstrating a 65,000 baht deposit every month?

I hope they get this resolved. I'm not particularly impressed with the Consul General's meeting with immigration. Nothing new at all. Unless I've missed something, it seems to me he did an excellent job of listening to immigration, but did nothing to attempt to offer alternatives or compromises. A great job of listening. Gee, Mr. Consul General, what a BIG help! Thanks a lot . . .

Image

I wonder how much this guy gets paid.
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Re: Retirement visa news - and it's not good

Post by Dodger »

Quoted from Democrats Abroad Thailand:
Scherer acknowledged that Immigration Offices around Thailand exercise discretion in applying regulations, so there may be some inconsistencies.
I guess one could consider the term "exercise discretion in applying regulations" as being politically correct but I find it hysterical.. :lol: Another way to phrase this is "they don't have a fucking clue what they're doing".

The way I see it they (Thai Immigration) will have no other choice than to accept Thai Bank Books and/or Thai Bank Statements as proof of income going forward. They forced this on themselves the minute they started telling foreign embassy's that income affidavits would no longer be accepted. The combination method (income + money in bank totaling 800k) will not change (IMO).

So the Immigration Offices around Thailand can continue to exercise discretion in applying regulations all they want, but if you can toss your Thai bankbook and/or Thai bank statement down on the table showing that you've met the minimum income requirements (using the combination method) that should ease the burden they have in exercising discretion in applying the regulations considerably.
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